I have too many sacred Mormon narratives. It’s a serious problem; I have more sacred narratives than any one kind of Mormon is allowed to have.
For instance, the stories about Joseph Smith are sacred to me. The First Vision, the angel Moroni, the gold plates, the angel with a sword ordering him to practice polygamy, the saintly martyrdom in Carthage. These stories bring the sense of God into my life. They’re sacred and irreplaceable.
So are the other stories about Joseph Smith. His youth as a Yankee huckster and a treasure seer, his religious career as a pious fraud, the story of him writing an anti-Masonic book of scripture and then later becoming a Mason, his irrepressible sex drive. All of these are also sacred to me, and I hear God’s voice in them as well (although for somewhat different reasons).
Let’s take the examples of Joseph’s gold plates and the seer stones. The traditional account of the gold plates is sacred to me as a symbol of several divine truths: as a representation of how the holy can be hidden in the mundane (like a book in a small glacial hillside), as a reminder of the links between generations (leaving behind a sacred book is, perhaps, better than leaving behind a mountain full of radioactive waste!), as an enactment of the idea that God and the things of the Spirit are incomparably more important than economic goods (the gold in the plates was worthless, after all, compared to the message on them). The gold plates narrative brings these and other truths powerfully into my mind and heart because it is sacred; at the same time, it is sacred exactly because it reminds me of truths like these.
So what about Joseph’s seer stones? I don’t believe the idea that Joseph never did much work as a treasure seer. Nor do I believe that God gave Joseph (and only Joseph out of the many, many treasure seers of early 19th-century New England) the power to actually see underground in his seer stones. So I’m left with some idea of Joseph the treasure seer as a fraud and a kind of backwoods con man. This story is sacred to me; in fact, it’s every bit as sacred as the traditional account in the previous paragraph. It is sacred because it connects my community with a real time and place (we came from a locale where people actually believed you could locate buried pirate treasure by looking in a rock in a hat!). It’s also sacred because the evolution of Joseph the local con man into Joseph the religious leader is an enactment of very American ideas about self-improvement, and very Christian ideas about redemption. Finally, it’s sacred because the Latter-day Saint scholars who first began, about twenty years ago, to acknowledge the evidence in favor of this account enacted the Socratic and Gallilean tradition of following intellectual efforts at truth in spite of community rejection. Retelling these stories celebrates that courage and iconoclasm.
Having these different sets of sacred narratives causes a lot of social trouble for me. There are well-defined categories of Mormons who celebrate the traditional narratives, and other categories that embrace the alternative accounts. But each group tends to violently reject the other group’s sacred narrative. For my traditional Latter-day Saint friends and family, it can be frightening and even demonic that I hold onto the nontraditional narratives, including the narratives about Joseph Smith discussed above and other such accounts through the entire history of the church. Yet for my ex-Mormon and skeptical friends and family, it is a maddening conundrum that I’ve been exposed to the nontraditional accounts and yet I still hold the traditional accounts to be sacred.
What can I say? At the end of the day, these people’s problems with my sacred narratives don’t bother me too much. I am hurt when people try to strip part of my sacred lore from me by argumentation or by reviling it. Hence, I react with some horror to the accounts in Our Heritage and other history publications by the church, which distort and omit some facts with the aim of denying the legitimacy of nontraditional accounts. But I find dogmatic rejection of the sacredness of traditional accounts to be equally upsetting. For example, Dan Vogel’s imaginative depiction of Joseph Smith scrapping together a set of “gold plates” out of scraps of tin strikes me as an aggressive attempt to overwrite the traditional narrative. In telling this part of Smith’s life, Vogel goes so far beyond the evidence, so far beyond the intellectual call of duty, that he seems to betray a drive to destroy—and this drive is just as painful as the church’s attempt to suppress other aspects of our history. Yet, to be honest, I don’t really need other people to accept all of my sacred stories—although I would like others to accept me. But that’s another story.
I guess the last question is this: how can I hold sacred both the traditional and the alternative narratives of Mormon history? After all, they are (to varying degrees) contradictory. Isn’t it irrational to believe X and not-X? To think of Joseph as a genuine prophet who dug gold plates out of the ground and produced authentic scripture by the power of God, and simultaneously to think of him as a con man-turned-pseudepigrapher who felt called by God to reform the world and tried to give his message added weight by making it ancient?
Perhaps it is irrational. But the sacred isn’t the realm of the rational. The author Karen Armstrong discusses a distinction between mythos and logos, between the sacred narratives that give life meaning and the rational, evidence-based reasoning that allows us to manipulate and control things in the world. She suggests that both are sources of different kinds of truth, in effect that they are (to borrow from Stephen Jay Gould) nonoverlapping magesteria.
To me, this argument is sometimes misguided. For instance, it matters a great deal to me whether the resurrection is an empirical fact or a symbol that helps us understand our ongoing contribution to humanity even in death. While resurrection would maintain its mythical power in either case, I find a lot of emotional comfort in holding to faith in an empirical resurrection.
But when it comes to the sacred events of Mormon history, Armstrong’s approach seems about right to me. Did Joseph, in actual fact, dig up really-existing gold plates from the Hill Cumorah? In rational terms, I suppose, the answer has to be either yes or no. But even asking this question collapses sacred narratives with immense mythic weight into just another intellectual conundrum from 19th-century history. How banal!
Instead, I cling to all my sacred Mormon narratives, traditional and otherwise. I find God more easily in a complex and contradictory mosaic of mythos-based accounts than in any sleek and linear logos-based reality.


Thank you very much for this great post. I identified very strongly with your reflections on what is sacred to you. I feel a great love for Joseph Smith, not because he was anywhere near perfect, but because at times he was a conduit for God’s light and truth. My life is deeper and richer because of what he was willing to do. For me, the fact that he was just as subject to sin and error as the rest of us, does nothing to diminish the sacredness of what he shared with me and the world. Furthermore, I think we sometimes discount the sacredness of our own lives and experience because we know too well all of our own sin and weakness.
Hmmm. How to respond to this one…
I guess I have to ask about your definition of “sacred” accounts. You hold contradicting tales sacred. What is it that made either one sacred to you? Is the fact that both seem plausible enough to make them sacred?
For me, an account like this only becomes sacred when I have received revelation from God telling me that He thinks it is both important and true. Anything less than that I would not call sacred. Like the ground under the burning bush, the thing that makes it sacred is the revelatory experience revealing the truth of it.
Obviously you must be using a definition of sacred that falls short of that criterion because a God of truth would not reveal that “X and not-X” are both true. God does not know both X and not-X, he knows one or the other (of course getting His real opinion often requires reducing the subject to specific details rather than simply siding with one existing camp or the other). When He tells us what he knows, then it becomes a sacred belief for us. Until then I personally have trouble elevating the belief to the position of “sacred”.
Geoff, my idea of sacredness is closely related to yours: sacred narratives are narratives of great mythic power through which I can connect with God. I think revelation most of the time involves an experience of the divine rather than propositional knowledge; sometimes, I think, people accidentally add informational content to revelation that’s just about getting to know God. Well, I’ve experienced God through all the narratives discussed above–so they meet my definition of sacred.
River stone, I’m glad you enjoyed the post!
This is a dicey subject for me to be responding to. Any time someone calls something sacred it becomes a subject that requires treading lightly…
But I think I remain on safe ground if I suggest that the next step is to get more specific on details with God. I am assuming that as you have read the narratives from both sides of this divide you have felt promptings from God that whisper “there is truth here”. That is a good thing. It seems to me that the next step is to begin drilling down more deeply and utilizing ongoing dialogue with God as you do so. When you come to details where one narrative claims “X” and another narrative claims “Not X” you can take that specific question to God. Getting a yes or no answer from God is typically the easiest type of revelation to receive to you can rely on the old D&C 9 pattern for that.
It seems to me that this is the process that most of the great spiritual thinkers have gone through (I’m thinking of guys like Hugh Nibley for instance). The end product can be a less naive, deeper, and more nuanced understanding of both historical and spiritual truths. At least that is what I am counting on as I work through this same process myself.
(This has something to do with the orthodox vs. heterodox discussion we had at the Thang a few weeks ago.)
Thank you for your post roasted tomatoes. You were quite honest in your feelings and intent. I suppose my question would be: Why must the church distort its history? I can not quite figure that one out. It only does the church a dis-service as it does its members. But I do agree that your understanding of sacredness and Joseph Smith needs to be respected. We all can hold various degrees of sacredness about many different aspects of church life and understanding. But I do not like deception if there is deception involved. I would like to believe in the purity of the traditional Joseph Smith story as I was taught during my early days but when that story becomes marred in speculation and perhaps falsehood…the whole house of cards can come tumbling down—at least it can in my mind. As Pilate said: What is truth? This question seems to be the paramount of current discourse as the concept of ‘truth’ is held up to be suspect…how can one believe in truth and sacredness? I suppose that we live in dangerous and harsh times as many people attempt to navigate life’s waters without a compass leading to sacredness and truth…
Geoff, it’s hard for me to know how to respond to your thoughts. I certainly do appreciate your concern for me. But, at the same time, what you’re doing is actually an instance of what I discuss in the post: you’re trying to convince me to give up a set of narratives that help me connect with God. The situation that I describe in the post is actually the result of a substantial introspective quest that I’ve done. I don’t mean to say that this is my end-point, because I’m not dead yet. But it is a place of peace that I’ve achieved after substantial struggle. Being able to just embrace the contradictions is a victory for me. I wish we, as a community, were more open to unorthodox solutions — like mine — to the problems of faith and evidence. But the most common response, I think, is like yours: to assume that it’s necessary to simplify and eliminate contradictions. That’s the response I’ve come to expect from ex-Mormons and from more orthodox folks. Well, that’s okay. But it would be even better if you would accept my solution as what it is: good enough for me, at least for now.
Why me: I’m not sure how much of what goes on in discussions of Mormon history actually counts as deception. There are certainly biased presentations and polemics disguised as history (from both perspectives). But I think most of those who leave out one important part or another of the picture do so from a position of sincerity: they think that they’re really just simplifying to emphasize the really central stuff.
At the end of the day, early Mormon events are now 170 to 180 years in the past. They are incompletely attested in the documentary record. We know enough to understand that many traditional accounts are implausible: they simply leave out too much evidence of Joseph Smith’s enviromental influences. But we also know enough to understand that you can’t claim to have a grasp on Joseph Smith until you’ve come to terms with his sincere and genuine spirituality and sense of calling.
So I guess what I mean by this is that I think we should be skeptical of overly simple accounts from either side. Traditional narratives may be over-simplified, but it’s also an over-simplification to call the traditional narratives a deception. They’re really a kind of window on an incomplete and inaccessible truth, as, I think, are the newer historical perspectives.
Thanks for your response Roasted Tomatoes. I appreciate your honesty. I suppose that it is safe to assume that in simplicity there can be many contradictions or should I write complications. I think that you are right about what you wrote about coming to terms with joseph smith’s spirituality and sense of calling. Strange but most of us who post on sites such as this and other sites are seemingly trying to come to terms with our faith or lack of faith. It is certainly not a simple ride; in fact, it can be rather bumpy. Thanks again…
But even asking this question collapses sacred narratives with immense mythic weight into just another intellectual conundrum from 19th-century history. How banal!
At the end of the day, early Mormon events are now 170 to 180 years in the past. They are incompletely attested in the documentary record.
Interesting way to put things together, I’m glad it works for you.
I’ll respect you no matter what position you take on these sorts things, RT.
I wish we, as a community, were more open to unorthodox solutions — like mine — to the problems of faith and evidence. But the most common response, I think, is like yours: to assume that it’s necessary to simplify and eliminate contradictions.
In defense of both sides of this debate, I think there are lots of good reasons to encourage settling obvious contradictions in beliefs. From the ex-Mormon side the cognitive dissonance that is likely to arise from such contractions seem undesirable and uncomfortable. From the Mormon/Christian perspective, there are ample scriptural exhortations to not vacillate between contradicting opinions/doctrines. For instance: “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” Perhaps these verses don’t apply to your situation, but I hope at least you can understand why both sides would find your chosen position very difficult to understand or defend – especially if you plan to hold this position for the long run.
Geoff,
Read the verses you quoted in context. They have nothing to do with RT’s (or anyone else’s) opinions, thoughts, or feelings in regard to our church’s historical narrative, and everything to do with devotion to Christ, loyalty to Christ, and acceptance of His atonement and sacrifice on the cross.
I suppose some among us would argue that our church’s own narrative of its recent history is inseparable from the claim that Christ suffered for our sins and broke the bands of death, but that’s just not true. Further, acceptance of and devotion to His work is not contingent on belief in the simple (and often shifting) narrative we as a people use to explain our current culture. Neither is acceptance of LDS doctrine or theology contingent on belief in that same historical narrative.
Alas, you caught me in some lazy prooftexting Serenity Valley. However, I think there are better verses that actually do help support the points I was making about the scriptures not looking kindly upon doctrinal fence-sitting.
“And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.” (1 Kgs. 18: 21)
There are others but I guess this one is a good start. I think it would be difficult to find scriptures that encourage embracing two openly contradictory doctrines about a prophet.
Your point that one does not need to believe in Joseph Smith (correctly or incorrectly) to believe in Christ is a good one. At some point one has to ask; why be a Mormon at all if Joseph was not what he claimed to be? Why waste you time with all those deceived Mormons when you could have a direct relationship with Christ without them? Lots of people have decided to do just that.
My point is that God has an opinion about Joseph Smith. God does not believe “X and Not X” about the history and motivations of and experiences of Joseph Smith. Further, through that direct relationship we can all have with Christ we can ask Him his opinion. I have harped on the idea in the past that the primary advantage in our daily lives of being Mormon is the added access it gives us to personal revelation. If we are not receiving lots of real revelation we are wasting our Mormonism is my opinion.
My thought was that while halting between contradicting opinions may be working for now, I can’t imagine how it can work in the long run for anyone. Perhaps RT will prove me wrong though.
Geoff, a couple of points. First of all, with respect to cognitive dissonance, I often wish that this term had never been brought into our religious discussions. I think its entry point was really ex-Mormons trying to account for the motive behind apologetic responses to the Book of Abraham papyri. At the end of the day, cognitive dissonance is just an elaborate (and partially unfalsifiable) proposition that humans like to resolve contradictions. But all kinds of people accept all kinds of contradictions on a regular basis without experiencing any apparent stress as a result. Only if the contradiction in question is primed to the person as something in need of resolution is a cognitive dissonance effect likely to take place.
If I don’t experience the contradictions we’re discussing aren’t as something in need of resolution, is that a problem? Alternatively, if the pain involved in resolving these contradictions might be greater than any pain brought on by cognitive dissonance, why should I bother? In effect, I find cognitive dissonance to be among the weaker proselytizing arguments out there.
Your Old Testament scripture seems to have the same message as the New Testament one Serenity Valley responded to before: don’t be neutral about God. Okay, I’m not. I’m fully on board, head to toe. I’ve got no reservations and no limits on that commitment.
As I think I’ve discussed in a few places previously, we may have different views on the character of revelation. I think you see revelation as a reliable source of propositional knowledge: God tells us that X is true about Y. I agree with this in a very limited way; God certainly does reveal His love to us, and He seems to sometimes reveal very specific information about decisions that He needs us to make. Beyond that, I think that revelation is essentially an encounter with Him, and the content of the communication is the communion of our souls with His. Doctrinal ideas may be necessary to initiate or maintain that communion, but I think we most often supply those necessary ideas ourselves. So I agree completely that we need personal revelation, that we can’t be spiritually alive without it, but I still don’t think that we can necessarily extract reliable information of the propositional type from revelation. But that’s okay; I don’t share the horror of “false doctrine” that some express. Regardless of what Elder McConkie famously thought, I’m pretty sure that we’ll be judged for whether our thoughts, words, and deeds were trying to become Christ-like and whether we repented for the very frequent occasions when they were not–and not for whether our thoughts were factually correct.
Why, you ask, do I stay in the church? Look, let’s be frank: I’m not in the church because of Joseph Smith and I won’t stay or leave because of him. Let me explain why I’m here, then. First, God wants me to be here. Simple message, no elaboration. But I think it would be unwise to disobey. Second, these are my people and this is who I am. There’s no other social or cultural group in the world that means as much to me, for better or for worse. You all are written in my soul like commandments on granite slabs. Third, we’ve got the message about Christ and salvation (although others have this central truth as well), and the power of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. So why would I leave?
Geoff,
In response to your reply to me above:
You say:
“‘And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.’ (1 Kgs. 18: 21)
“There are others but I guess this one is a good start. I think it would be difficult to find scriptures that encourage embracing two openly contradictory doctrines about a prophet.”
I assure you that RT is a single-minded believer in and follower of the Lord. He is not split between the Lord and Baal, in either a literal or metaphorical sense. I’m curious as to your reasoning that he might be otherwise–please state it explicitly.
You say also:
“My point is that God has an opinion about Joseph Smith. God does not believe “X and Not X” about the history and motivations of and experiences of Joseph Smith. Further, through that direct relationship we can all have with Christ we can ask Him his opinion. I have harped on the idea in the past that the primary advantage in our daily lives of being Mormon is the added access it gives us to personal revelation. If we are not receiving lots of real revelation we are wasting our Mormonism is my opinion.”
I think it’s dangerous to explain God’s opinions, because we don’t necessarily know them. We may know what God wants us to know, which need not be exactly the same. Beyond that, my response to this is simple: God has given me, and does give me, personal revelation; it just isn’t about Joseph Smith.
I am a Mormon because I recieved a direct revelation that I should be a Mormon. However, for some reason, the revelations with which God graces me are always indications of His will for me, and never of His opinions or corrections of the historical record. I have prayed for such information, and I have prayed for confirmation of others’ beliefs about it, but I have never recieved an answer to those questions, even as I have felt God’s Spirit in His lack of response–I am left with the definite impression that God doesn’t really care what I believe about the church’s historical narrative.
My conclusion from this is that God gives different people different revelations. You recieve revelation confirming or disconfirming certain ideas about Mormon history (among other things, I am sure), and I only recieve revelation about God’s will for me. I make no assumption about what God will tell either of us in the future. I trust God, and so am not alarmed at the apparent discrepancy between us. Finally, I try to extend the same courtesy to RT that I extend to you and other people.
Finally, you say:
“My thought was that while halting between contradicting opinions may be working for now, I can’t imagine how it can work in the long run for anyone. Perhaps RT will prove me wrong though.”
I don’t think RT is halting between contradicting opinions. He simply holds a third opinion. I suspect, given my conversations with RT and your comments here, that the two of you have different understandings of the possibble range of beliefs. For RT, there is no “X and Not X” in his simultaneous reverence for the church’s mythic narrative and Mormon history. Yes, I realize that the “X and Not X” thing is from RT’s original post–he was trying to describe the way others interpret his beliefs about this issue, not his own perception of it.
Regardless of what Elder McConkie famously thought, I’m pretty sure that we’ll be judged for whether our thoughts, words, and deeds were trying to become Christ-like and whether we repented for the very frequent occasions when they were not–and not for whether our thoughts were factually correct.
Excellent line, RT. I’m with ya.
Why, you ask, do I stay in the church? … God wants me to be here.
Also a great comment. I could not argue with that logic.
SV: I’m curious as to your reasoning that he might be otherwise–please state it explicitly.
I simply applied this scripture about fence sitting concerning the Lord to His prophet of the restoration.
I think it’s dangerous to explain God’s opinions, because we don’t necessarily know them.
My statement was really about God’s knowledge. I don’t think it is too dangerous to say God has knowledge of those things. I just used the word “opinion” to soften the statement.
Thanks for your thoughtful responses (both RT and SV). They are eloquently written and well received.
But, Geoff, the Lord and Joseph Smith are not the same person. Applying a scripture about the Lord to Joseph Smith can yield really entertaining results: “And Joseph Smith spake all these words, saying, I am the Joseph Smith thy Joseph Smith, which have brought thee out of the land of New York, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other Joseph Smiths before me” (Exodus 20:1-3).
Geoff,
The scripture you quoted is specifically about fence-sitting concerning the Lord. His prophet of the restoration has nothing to do with it. And as I have stated before, accepting the prophethood of Joseph Smith is not contingent on acceptance of the church’s mythic narrative as non-mythic fact, anyway. So please, state your reasoning explicitly.
Yes, God has knowledge of everything, I assume. That doesn’t mean you or I understand either his set of knowledge, or his opinions. We know only what He wants us to know, and that isn’t necessarily everything we think He wants us to know.
RT, if you haven’t already read Kierkegaard’s Concept of Irony, you should. I think you’d really dig it. He is interested in the importance of maintaining irony in one’s life (basically, the tension between your Xs and not-Xs).
I yield.
This just doesn’t seem like the right post to debate on…
RT, I’ve been travelling over the last couple of weeks and missed this. Just wanted to thank you for the post.
My personality/background requires a synthesis for me to be at all functional. I think that is what I love most about the antitheses. They allow me to see things new.
…the more I think about it, the more it seems that the dialectic (often painfully) is central to Mormonism. Where else do you loose half the church and its leaders at a pop? Bieng Mormon is too remain.
Don’t you people ever tire of having to rationalize? Rationalize, rationalize, rationalize. Why not use a little reason instead?
Duff, I’m not sure faith is the domain of reason. Anyway, this post is rather the opposite of rationalization; what I’m saying is frankly non-rational.
RT: You bring up an interesting paradox. I suppose that I deal with the story by emplotting it slightly differently. First, I don’t expect any narrative to be free of rhetorical agendas and hence to be inaccurate. Furthermore, I have never felt that the Church was ever trying to hide something from me, as all of the information about the “difficult” side of Church history has been easily and readily available to me my entire life. If there is some plot to keep it all hidden, it has been singularlly ineffective. Finally, I have always assumed that in a lay church when it comes to history most of my teachers — ie Sunday School teachers, seminary teachers, etc. — basically didn’t know what they were talking about. This doesn’t mean that they are evil or ignorant or that their teaching was unimportant or lacked spiritual power, only that I have always assumed that I had to be a little skeptical of what they told me.
As for the alternative narratives of Church history — peep stones and all the rest — rather than emplotting them as the outcome of a heroic iconoclasts whose memories must be tenaciously honored, I think of them as just really cool stories, filled with oddities and historical details that make the whole subject endlessly fun. In other words, rather than trying to find integrity in my angst, I have tried to simply jettison angst in favor of delight. As for social and familial ostracism and the like, I have always assumed that it had far more to do with my annoying personality tics than with any passing familiarity I might have with D. Michael Quinn or Dan Vogel.
Geoff wrote:
When you come to details where one narrative claims “X” and another narrative claims “Not X” you can take that specific question to God. Getting a yes or no answer from God is typically the easiest type of revelation to receive to you can rely on the old D&C 9 pattern for that.
It seems to me that this is the process that most of the great spiritual thinkers have gone through (I’m thinking of guys like Hugh Nibley for instance).
Speaking of Nibley, did you know he wrote this of court records indicating JS was convicted of using a “looking glass” to scam people:
“If this court record is authentic it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith and would be the most devastating blow to Smith ever delivered.”
Just recently, this evidence was proven to be true.
Beavis, you’re right about the Nibley claim and the recent recovery of the missing court document. More generally, both Mormon and non-Mormon historians of Mormonism have concurred since the mid-1980s that Smith was a treasure seer before he did the Book of Mormon project. What is now in question is the claim Nibley made: that this evidence is in fact a devastating blow. Certainly it raises serious questions and changes our perceptions of Joseph Smith; does it also mean that he couldn’t have been a prophet? I’m not sure there’s a consensus on this question…
I think that it has been more than 20 years since anyone seriously questioned the authenticity of the Bainbridge trial. What exactly it was is open to quite a bit of dipute. The fact that Joseph was a glass looker and a treasure hunter is not.
Given the massive presence of glass looking and treasure hunting in 19th century America, it seems rather unlikely to me that this is evidence that Joseph was a fraud bilking people out of their money. I’ve little doubt that he and his customers were entirely sincere about the efficacy of his seer stone. Rather, it seems to me that the interesting theological question is about how to make sense of Joseph’s beliefs about magic in the context of his religious beliefs, which faithful Mormons are committed to according some sort of particular authority.
It’s not very difficult to lump magic and religious beliefs together. In fact it is impossible to show how they are in any way different. There is more magical thinking in religion than in the fairy tales. You guys are struggling mightily to make an intellectual cake out of pretend ingredients.
Duff, it’s also difficult to distinguish between magic and science–but so what? Magic, like scientism, is a religious belief; it’s just a label for condemning religions that we don’t like. It’s clear to me that you don’t like religion. I’ve gotten that message. But why should I care what you like or don’t like? If you’d like to explain to me the reasons that you experience religion as a negative, that would be a worthwhile conversation, and I would care about your reasons. It would be even more worthwhile if we could have that conversation from a place of mutual respect; you could offer respect for my understandings and experiences that differ from yours, and I would offer you the same.
I’m not sure I give a fig about “mutual respect”. I’m not particularly respectful of people who engage in fanciful thinking, or for that matter, of people who can’t distinguish the difference between magic and science. I have little tolerance for people who spend hours of their day rationalizing the un-rationalizable.
Duff, I think there’s a clear distinction between some aspects of science and religion. But take something like string theory, which intends to explain the fundamental nature of reality and which I am told has effectively no observable implications. Is there a terribly crisp differentiation between this kind of science and the more experimental forms of magic? A second example of a gray area is the practice of astrology: once considered a science by all the leading thinkers, now dismissed by everyone (me included) as groundless magic. Likewise, the magical practice of alchemy eventually developed into the modern science of chemistry. My point here is that pretending that there are always sharp boundaries between different categories of experience is wishful thinking.
Religion absolutely has magical elements. Magic has religious elements. Magic has scientific elements. Popular conceptions of science have magical elements. But so what? If we accept that these are all just terms and that value judgments need to be made on some basis beyond mere labeling, I’m not sure that these elements of ambiguity are such a big deal.
I’d also like to point out that I’m not interested in rationalization. I’ve come to the conclusion that religion is fundamentally about the irrational. Why would one bother rationalizing the irrational?
What is wrong with magic?
Nate, my point exactly. Not only is there nothing inherently wrong with magic, there’s also no clear way of distinguishing between magic and other forms of human endeavor.
That said, there are clearly an awful lot of kinds of magic that, in my opinon, are really just fraud or baseless superstition.
Interesting how “string theory” has come to replace “quantum mechanics” as the buzzword used by religionists in their eternal effort to conflate religion with science. I suppose any new, difficult to understand, concept will do. “I posit that eleven dimensional string theory is God” Very nice bit of unfalsifiable gibberish, don’t you think? That is until string theory is validated - or not - and can make some predictions.
You state, Mr. Tomato, that there is no way to distinguish between magic and some forms of human endeavor. I would also say there is no way to distinguish between magic and all forms of “religion”. There is nothing about any religion that doesn’t involve supernaturalism. No religious concept, from God to Prophets, can be anything other that supernatural. No religious concept is falsifiable! Just like magic. And we’re not talking slight of hand here. We’re talkin magic.
Science is all about “facts”, that when accumulated can make a prediction.
I become mirthful when religious people begin equating science with religion. I’m sure I don’t have to remind a very bright guy like you that Science has facts without certainty, and religion has certaintly without facts.
Keep on rationalizing.
Duff, I think you’re about sixty years out of date in your understanding of how science works. That’s fine; most non-academics have a perception essentially equivalent to what you have. Nonetheless, you should some day read Kuhn’s The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, which can serve as a gateway into the current debates over how science is to be understood. Additionally, it’s a great book.
Methinks you, yourself, are a little out of date. No serious, up to date science philosophers buy into that post modernist nonsense anymore. Everything is not relative in science. It may be fair to say nothing can be “known” in science, but to go the next step and say all opinions are equally valid is mush. Only in meta-physics and religion can you get away with talking like that anymore.
Your problem is, Mr. Tomato, in my humble opinion, that you don’t actually believe in anything. Joseph Smith was, or maybe wasn’t a prophet, the B of M is, or maybe isn’t, what it is purported to be. Its all the same to you. You find it all spiritually uplifting. Too easily uplifted for my taste. And bloody boring.
Yes, Mr. Tomato, your problem is obviously that you don’t believe in anything (although that’s an odd charge for Duff to make). Or maybe that you believe in too much. Or maybe it’s that you are too educated, or just too darn scientific. Anyone who runs around recommending Kuhn obviously reads too many books, which makes you too leisurely, I suppose. In trying to square religion and science, you are definitely being too rational. Too easily uplifted I doubt, but for putting up with Duff, you are at risk for being considered too tolerant.
Duff, it’s certainly true that Kuhn’s perspective isn’t the cutting edge anymore. But that book is a turning-of-the-tide moment in the philosophy of science. Since Kuhn, it’s always been necessary to admit that social processes of persuasion are at the core of science. Note that this idea doesn’t make all opinions equally valid; opinions that are more persuasive to the professionally-trained body of scientists are taken far more seriously than those that are unpersuasive to that crowd. But if you’re interested in moving closer to the current situation in the philosophy of science, you’ll need to also read Lakatos, Laudan, and possibly also Feyerabend (that last you will really hate if you think Kuhn is “postmodernist nonsense”).
Let me close my part in this dialogue by reiterating that I don’t think science and religion are the same thing. However, like most real-world concepts, there can be gray areas and ambiguities. The worship of science, for example, is more religious than it is scientific. There has never been a scientific demonstration of the proposition that science has all (or the most important) answers, has there? So believing this claim is just as religious as my decision to believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins.
RT,
Not to make light of your last comment–but this thread has made me decide to start calling you Mr. Tomato Head. You know, to relieve the boredom during our religious conversations.
Now that we have figured out how we can belive all kind of fun stuff and still be mormons . We should focus on how our mormonism can make the world at large a better place. I think the Jewish metaphor of the the leaven fits. Our job as saints is to improve the world we live in. How can we aply our mormonism to our economics and our politics instead of leaving those things to be filled in by the republican party. If there is a Marvelous Work and a Wonder coming forth then lets be part of it. My assumution is that Joesph was a prophet I came to that conclusion through prayer.
because I “know” that glowing core to be true that alows me to discuss the prophets stint as a con-man without losing faith. Dinosaurs and native american DNA without a whince. my testimony is not of those things it is the peace christ sang to my soul on that night.
the Book of Mormon could be a pious fraud the church could run by shallow men and every mormon on earth could vote for George W. Bush it would not change my experiance with the divine. If God is not Joesphs God and is instead Calvin monster without body-parts or passions I will have no part of him I would prefer to burn in hell with a yokel con man from New York.
-Klaus
Klaus, cheers, brother! I feel that I can sing that song with you. I’ve had a series of posts over recent months exploring theological issues and perspectives, but I’m getting to a point where I have said much of what I want to on that front for the time being and will be returning to more temporally-themed ideas about how to apply gospel ideas of equality and love to politics and economics.
Likewise with respect to issues of belief and testimony. The “body, parts or passions” idea isn’t the thing I personally find especially troubling about Calvin’s God, by the way. What I instead find especially upsetting is the idea that God arbitrarily chooses some people to save and some to damn — for no motive other than His own glory. That’s one scary monster, in my experience of the idea!
Of course thats what makes Him a monster the being with out a body just makes Him not exist. I think this Theological Materialism is Key to understanding Brother Joesph and the church. There isn’t a difference between this world and the spiritual there is just one world. God is a person not just a concept and if that gets us univited to the national day of prayer then great (Dr. Dobbins is creepy anyway). in my reading of Augustine this is the doctrine his mother holds that makes him ashamed of Christianity. But I gave up reading the fathers when I converted not as a protest I just kind of lost interest when I met the personality of the Prophet Joesph when reading Harold Bloom’s “The American Religion”. I owe my faith to literary critisism.
-Klaus
sorry about the creepy too quick reply but I am really excited about the beginings of a faithful economic left in the church It’s a mormon tradition that has unfortunately fallen by the wayside. My grandfather was a temple going of the church and also a democratic-socialist in that time there was not a conflict between the church and the political left I think that the coldwar and the issue of abortion have driven us to a conservitive political position that is actually unnatural and the saints should snapback to our Utopian roots or at least thats what I hope.
-klaus
“the spirit of mormonism is Liberality and an open mind”
-John Taylor <-I think