Perhaps the most commonly-discussed topic in the LDS online world is the question of how and when to follow advice given by church leaders. Should we always obey everything the church president says? Or everything that is said over the pulpit in General Conference? Or everything that fits with our personal understanding of the Spirit? Or is it best to simply be wildly inconsistent in this regard? This topic is so popular that I have previously given in to the temptation to discuss it.
In this post, I’m going to employ a kind of epistemological jujitsu and offer a quote from a speech by a past president of the church on the topic of following church leaders. Brigham Young, in a Feb. 20, 1853, sermon at the Salt Lake Tabernacle (reported in the Journal of Discourses, vol.1, pgs. 312-13), offered some extended reflections on the spiritual consequences of relying heavily on guidance from church leaders. His remarks would probably fall somewhat outside of the Sunday School mainstream today.
So, I’ll turn the time over to Brother Brigham (italics added by RoastedTomatoes).
Salvation is an individual operation. I am the only person that can possibly save myself. When salvation is sent to me, I can reject or receive it. In receiving it, I yield implicit obedience and submission to its great Author throughout my life, and to those whom He shall appoint to instruct me; in rejecting it, I follow the dictates of my own will in preference to the will of my Creator. There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. "I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own," say they, "to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem."
I wish to notice this. We read in the Bible, that there is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moons and another glory of the stars. In the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, these glories are called telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, which is the highest. These are worlds, different departments, or mansions, in our Father’s house. Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the, celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold sceptres of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer. Do you know what is right and just, as well as I do? In some things you do, and in some things you may not. know as well; but I will explain what I mean, in the following words—I will do all the good I can, and all I know how to do, and I will shun every evil that I know to be an evil. You can all do that much. I will. apply my heart to wisdom, and ask the Lord to impart it to me; and if I know but little, I will improve upon it, that to-morrow. I may have more, and thus grow from day to day, in the knowledge of the truth, as Jesus Christ grew in stature and knowledge from a babe to manhood; and if I am not now capable of judging for myself, perhaps I shall be in another year. We are organized to progress in the scale of intelligence, and the least Saint by adhering strictly to the order of God, may attain to a full and complete salvation through the grace of God, by his own faithfulness.
What think ye? Is this one of those Brigham Young quotes that we toss on the garbage heap, or is it useful? (If we do toss it on the garbage heap, what does that mean for the question of following the church president?)
RT: Your final quesion, while put as a throw-away line, is actually the second most discussed topis (or maybe 3rd after SSM) in da blogospherical thingey.
Do past prophetic statements apply to us today? I guess you are including this in your first question, which can also be broken down:
1. When does what the prophet says actually have to be listened to, in the sense that it is counsel from God?
2. What is the shelf life of statements that are Prophetic/counsel from God.
3. How do we prioritize such statements? i.e. what if one overrules or claims to supercede another?
When we hear Brigham Young being quoted to show that we should not follow blindly, we should keep in mind that he also said a great deal about the necessity of following the Brethren. To quote him only on one side of the discussion is to misrepresent him.
To follow blindly is bad, but to follow with guidance from personal revelation is good.
My suspicion, ignoring the philosophical issues you raised, is that Brigham Thought no one should follow just because he said it. They should find out for themselves. However at the same time I think he felt that anyone who got different answers from him was being deceived and ought follow him. Perhaps that is somewhat contradictory. But I don’t think Brigham’s historic track record showed that he thought much of people who were passive followers or those who took different paths.
How does one follow(the prophet) with guidance from personal revelation? What if what is revealed to you is different than what the prophet says? I have honestly searched and find no scriptural basis for following any man(prophet or leaders included). We are told that we should give head to prophets and follow Jesus and Heavenly Father.
Joseph Smith said “…and if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall–that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves..” I would interpret this to mean that their minds were darkened because they weren’t receiving guidance from God, who gives light and truth, but were simply following Joseph. I just don’t see how we can be agents and followers at the same time.
I don’t believe that I am a blind follower. I break lots of commandments, both those of the Savior, and those of his prophets. But every time I have ever inquired of the Lord and received personal revelation on the matter, I have been told that I should keep the commandments of Jesus Christ as they are explained to me by his true prophets. And in 43 years of Church membership since leaving the Baptist faith, I do not recall having been given any bad advice or taught any false doctrine by the Brethren in Salt Lake City. Virtually all of the advice is of the type that asks us to have faith in Christ, repent of our sins, keep the commandments, love our wives, be good fathers, avoid pornography, stay away from alcohol and tobacco, be morally clean, and so forth. Why would a person be a blind follower to follow such counsel? What’s to disagree with? Do you honestly think that the Savior wants you to do something else?
It is the devil who wants us to go our own way, ignoring the counsel of the Savior’s true prophets. That way he can introduce false philosophies and subtle lies into our belief system. I read a lot of those false philosophies daily right here on the Bloggernacle. Where else could I find an argument about whether or not fornication is a bad thing? See Nine Moons: Why Is Fornication Such A Big Deal?
John, do you realize that, paradoxically, you’re at least potentially disagreeing with the quoted advice of two prophets above? Brigham Young said that those who follow the leadership without reevaluating received advice in terms of personal morality and inspiration will never make it into the Celestial Kingdom. Joseph Smith, as quoted by ally, states that following the prophet rather than making autonomous moral decisions darkens the mind. You may disagree with what these statements seem to mean, but you have to acknowledge that they come from past church leaders–and that their plain-English meaning would seem to contradict the idea of reflexively following the prophet. Hence, it’s really quite bizarre and inadmissable to describe the ideas we’re discussing as coming from Satan–unless you think Joseph Smith and Brigham Young sometimes gave us Satanic advice (which would also have implications for “following the prophet”).
Also, I want to take issue with a very problematic claim you made. You said that, in the last 43 years, you’ve never been taught any false doctrine by the General Authorities.
Here’s a false teaching by Ezra Taft Benson from the October, 1967, General Conference: “There is no doubt that the so-called civil rights movement as it exists today is used as a Communist program for revolution in America just as agrarian reform was used by the Communists to take over China and Cuba.” This is clearly false; it is clear from the biographies of the people involved that the civil rights movement was overwhelmingly made up of non-Communists, not to mention non-revolutionaries. (Parenthetically, one of the great advocates of non-violence in American history was one of the central leaders of the 1960s civil rights movement, obviously Benson didn’t notice.)
Here’s another one, which Bruce R. McConkie published in 1958 but which he still teaching for more than a decade after you joined the church: “Though he was a rebel and an associate of Lucifer in pre-existence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain managed to attain the privilege of mortal birth… he came out in open rebellion, fought God, worshipped Lucifer, and slew Abel… As a result of his rebellion, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those spirits who were not worthy to receive the priesthood are born through his lineage.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, pg. 102) This clearly differs from current teachings and is inadmissable today; yet, it was clearly taught in its time. Another false, and in this case evil, teaching from the bretheren.
Other quotes teaching racial prejudice could easily be added to the list. This is the simplest, least problematic example of false teachings by the General Authorities, because such statements no longer have any place in the mainstream church. We have moved past these claims.
Furthermore, it seems to me that believing such doctrines might be sinful in itself. Why would we have personal revelation if not to guide us away from accepting such false and hateful ideas?
Clark, I would argue that we should consider the possibility that Brigham Young’s leadership style and beliefs were not fully consistent with each other. I’m not going to state definitively that this is so, but it seems like a strong possibility.
I think it much more likely, RT, that while Young recognized the potential for error in many beliefs (and acknowledged errors at times, such as the idea of sandstone for the temple) he thought that for his important decisions they were inspired. Thus if he was inspired those seeking to know would be inspired the same way. I don’t see any contradiction there. One can acknowledge fallibilism while simultaneously having strong feelings about where one is right or wrong. Likewise I think his main emphasis was over passive followers. I think he felt quite strongly that a testimony was important and that a testimony was about the actions and doctrines themselves and not just ones leaders. i.e. indirect testimony merely about the prophet or scriptures was insufficient so as to ensure enduring to the end.
I don’t see a contradiction in that.
John W Redelfs,
I appreciate you reading my posts at Nine Moons but find it awkward that here you use it as an example of a false philosophy. I am, however, wondering if you actually read the post, considering the sincerity of my question and my conclusion. One of the greatest things about the Bloggernacle is that we can ask questions, we can talk through things we don’t understand. I can’t tell you how many questions I’ve had answered in these blogs. I’m sorry that you see sincere questions as false philosphies.
For the most part I agree with John that the prophets have largely said things that are good for us and would be wise for us to follow. But what if I’m trying to decide if I should use birth control? Should I follow older counsel and not use protection (because birth control is of the devil), or should I follow more recent counsel and pray with my wife about it (because it’s between us and the Lord)? You can’t say “do what the prophets say” because they say different things. The discussions aren’t usually about things we all agree on, they are on the more difficult ones we don’t all agree on.
To add to the what RT said, Bruce R. Mckonkie made some very interesting statements after the blacks received the preisthood in 1978. He said,
“There are statements in our literature by early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things…All I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President Goerge Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world…..”
Here is an apostle saying that atleast one prophet and some apostles have spoken in the past with limited understanding and not a fullness of light and knowledge on a very important matter, the salvation of an entire race of people.
Matthew 22:37-40 talks about the two great commandments which are loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves. It says that all the law and the prophets hang on these two great commandments. I truly believe there are times, and it may be different for everyone, that following certain laws or council leads us to be less loving to our neighbors. In this case wouldn’t we be keeping a lesser law, while breaking one of greatest commandments. I think past church leadership’s beliefs and policies regarding blacks, and for me personally, our present leaderships emphasis on appearance are examples of that.
Clark, I’m quite convinced that Brigham Young actually thought he was almost always right. But that’s not what I’m interested in with respect to this quote. What we’re discussing here isn’t prophetic claims of fallibility–although such claims are also available to us.
Rather, what we’re discussing is the process we should go through upon recieving advice from church leaders. Your comments about getting a testimony of each idea and about finding out for ourselves strongly suggests the current “common sense” within the church about how to respont to advice from leaders. Let me give a schematic version of that common sense.
1) Make sure you understand what the leader is saying. 2) Pray about the advice that you got. 3) Keep praying until the Lord tells you the advice is correct. 4) If the Lord doesn’t tell you the advice is correct, or if He seems to tell you the advice is incorrect, repent of your sins and repeat the process.
In this quote, Brigham Young instructs us to independently use our personal judgment and our own understanding of the world in evaluating gospel issues–in addition to listening to messages received from our connection with the Spirit and church leadership. In other words, according to Brigham’s view, we should never do something that seems wrong to us simply because it seems right to our leaders.
RT,
I may be wrong but BY himself (along with Heber C. Kimbal and others) did many things Joseph wanted them to do that they thought was wrong.
Rusty, you’re definitely right–a matter of historical record, especially with respect to polygamy. The fact that BY sometimes went against his own conscience at most tells us that Brigham Young was human, doesn’t it?