Latter-day Saints typically understand the nuclear family, consisting of father, mother, and children, to play a central role in God’s plan for humanity. The phrase “multiply and replenish the earth” occurs six times in our canonical texts, but only twice in the Bible, in Genesis 1:28 and 9:1. Two of the modern references are from Joseph Smith’s revision of Genesis, Moses 2:28 and 5:2, but only the first of these corresponds directly to one of the Genesis usages. A final reference to the phrase in a creation context arises in Abraham 4:28. The last remaining occurrence of this phrase, in Doctrine and Covenants 132:63, suggests a connection between childbirth and exaltation. Clearly, in light of this last reference, procreation has a higher theological status in the distinctively Mormon scriptures than in the Bible.
The emphasis on the theological importance of childbearing is, if anything, more pronounced in statements by the church’s leadership. Consider Melvin J. Ballard’s remarkably pointed statement from the middle of the 20th century:
There is a passage in our Scriptures which the Latter-day Saints accept as divine: ‘This is the glory of God—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man’ [see Moses 1:39]. Likewise we could say that this is the glory of men and women—to bring to pass the mortality of the sons and daughters of God, to give earth-life to the waiting children of our Father. (Sermons and Missionary Services, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1949, pp. 203)
More recently, in the April 1995 general conference, M. Russell Ballard made a similar statement, reiterating the absolute centrality of reproduction to the purposes of mortality:
After the Fall, God instructed Adam to cleave unto his wife, Eve (see Moses 3:24; D&C 42:22). “God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth” (Gen. 1:28), a commandment that has never been rescinded.
That fall, a remarkably similar statement became part of the Proclamation on the Family:
The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force.
In light of all these statements–and the many, many more that I haven’t quoted here–it seems clear that childless couples are failing to meet one of their most profound and fundamental mortal obligations. They are disregarding the first commandment given to humanity; they are neglecting their work and their glory; and they are failing to develop the relationships that are the basis for exaltation.
Having established the moral gravity of childlessness for Mormons, I have a confession to make. Serenity Valley and I are childless. We’ve been married for almost six years and we still have no children. This is a source of some sadness and great deal of disappointment to us; we first started trying to get pregnant a couple of months after we were married. And yet here we are. Serenity is currently going through a cycle of medical testing to see if there are solutions available for our particular difficulties, and if not we’re going to register to adopt as soon as our finances will make us look viable to adoption agencies. For the time being, we are forced to simply accept our situation.
One part of that situation is the strange way that we are treated by many other Mormons. Drawing on the church doctrine discussed briefly above, as well as on copious reserves of folklore, others in our community frequently assign motivations for our childlessness. Some assume that we are childless so that we can travel. (In fact, travel is part of my profession and will necessarily continue to be a part of our lives when we have children.) Others imagine that we have financial motivations for delaying “starting a family,” or that we are waiting until I finish graduate school. Not infrequently, people suppose that one or both of us dislike children.
I understand that, in light of the heavy theological emphasis on childbirth within our tradition, many people will need to provide themselves with some explanation for why active, faithful Latter-day Saints like us have no children. However, people often seem to need not just to develop such an explanation, but to share it with us. The resulting conversations are, almost without fail, socially awkward, invasive, and painful.
Equally painful are people’s well-meaning but frequently ham-handed attempts to encourage us to decide to have children. People have, for example, remarked on how great the two of us would look with children. When one or the other of us has had a calling related to children, people (although never, to date, the bishop–fortunately) sometimes comment on how the experience might help us get over our fear (repulsion, etc.) of children.
Individuals and families that fall outside the image of the nuclear family, with a mother, a father, and children, all share a set of common complaints within the Mormon cultural world. Like single parents, single adults, individuals within extended- (rather than nuclear-) family systems, and others who fall outside the norm, childless couples can suffer from the unjust judgment of their fellow Saints. We also experience some degree of (probably unavoidable) social isolation in a community as profoundly child-focused as our own. All this on top of the personal sorrow that Serenity and I face because we can’t as yet have children.
I can’t change this situation, and neither, dear reader, can you. But, since we believe in work by proxy, let me act as a proxy for childless couples in general and ask you (as a proxy for the rest of our friends and fellow believers) that you make an extra effort to be tactful and understanding in interacting with childless couples. This is, after all, a wonderful way for you to bear our burdens that they may be light (Mosiah 18:8).


This sort of behavior is especially saddening when there are thousands of reasons that people don’t have kids, very few of which have anything to do with unrighteousness. It’s unfortunate that people feel the need to make others feel unwelcome in circumstances like this.
RT, I disagree that you have established the “moral gravity of childlessness.” I think most LDS see such family questions (when to have children and how many) as personal decisions, and people are much more aware of the fact that some couples who want to have children encounter unforseen difficulties in making that happen. I’m just not sure the moral overlay you sense is actually there for most people anymore. In any case, it is certainly unfair and undesired that people in your situation should have to deal with an artificial moral component grafted onto the already weighty personal and practical issues.
RT,
You said it well.
And please accept the apologies I offer by proxy from those who have behaved tactlessly or thoughtlessly.
Best wishes to you and SV.
D-Train and mark, thanks for your kind words.
Dave, I certainly agree that there are some LDS folks who understand that childlessness isn’t necessarily due to unrighteous choice. I can tell you from experience that there are also at least some who don’t really understand that, at least in practice. There’s a selectivity problem for me when it comes to determining proportions of each group; the people who are more understanding don’t speak up. So I don’t know which camp houses the majority. But in my personal experience, 10-20 people per ward are vocal about our childlessness in one way or another.
Given that you indeed want children but are struggling to have them, I would suggest the following response to hurtful questions or suggestions from fellow members:
“My wife and I have been struggling with infertility for several years. This has been very painful for us. Your prayers on our behalf would be appreciated.”
That will shut them up and teach them a well-needed lesson in sensitivity.
Asking mormons to be tactful is asking quite a lot. My wife and I went our first four years of trying before getting pregnant. We faced similar things as you are describing.
It is not an easy road to go; we too have not been blessed with children after 5 years of marriage. While the first 2 years were by choice, it is no longer so. Yet, because I (the wife) have a fairly high powered career and both of us are “over educated” and “liberal,” people in our wards invariably make assumptions. In one sense, I am lucky enough to be quite young, so the maternal urges aren’t quite as strong as I expect them to become. However, it makes me question how I will handle this with grace as time goes on.
On a good day, it is difficult enough to just be in the presence of soo many “traditional” families or go through the pain of having your only “childless couple” friends move to a different ward. Bad days at church usually involve prodding into why you don’t have the obvious and what you should do about it. I nearly went inactive over being called to the nusery right about the time it became appartant it wasn’t as easy as just wishing for a child. If that wasn’t bad enough, I was constantly asked if the calling made me “want to have kids.” And while Ann Landers gives a good suggestion, sometimes when you are comming to terms with this reality (a process which takes years and leaves you feeling inadequate and questioning your whole value system as it is), you just cannot even get through those 3 sentances without bursting into tears.
Beyond advising to skip mothers and fathers day with no guilt or remorse (I prefer a picnic if the weather is nice or watching a favorite movie rather than to service), I really don’t have any advice. But I am sorry you have to live through this challange and am thankful you are willing to speak up about it.
Ann Landers,
That’s the way to go. A variation of it, which I’ve used in wards where we had a lot of problems, is to go to one of the women in the ward who supplies me with gossip and give her (in confidence) a protracted, detailed narration of our reproductive woes. Men, who are out of the RS gossip loop, still say things to RT, but I end up with lots of sympathy (which honestly makes me feel a little better) and requests for babysitting.
I hate to do it, because this stuff is personal, and because I don’t want to share things that might make other people uncomfortable. But sometimes it’s the only thing that stops the seemingly random stern talks about how important it is, now that RT and I are sealed, that I quit my job and get pregnant. (Hey, if quitting my job would fix the problem, I’d do it in a flash).
Making ourselves the subjects of gossip also helps alleviate the social isolation we’ve experienced. Until people know that RT and I aren’t a couple of child-haters, they tend to avoid inviting us over for dinner. (No, seriously, I’ve had people say, “I heard you like kids. I didn’t know that. I just assumed… wow, do you want to come over for dinner? We were nervous about having you, what with the toys underfoot and all, but now that we know you like kids…”).
The weird thing is that RT just gets rude speeches about our childless state. I often get rude speeches touched with envy…
Oh, but my favorite flippant remark to inquiries is “The stork just doesn’t always just drop them off when you want request.” It usually shuts them up.
RT,
Thank you for the post. My wife and I also struggled with infertility for many years. It took us a little over 6 years and a number of treatments to finally get pregnant (we are now the proud parents of a beautiful 2-year-old daughter). My standard response when asked when we were going to have kids was “as soon as Heavenly Father sees fit to bless us with them.” Most people would realize that they had touched on a sensitive subject and would back off. If they persisted (or if they were genuinely curious), I would matter-of-factly give them the medical details of our fertility problems. Most people who were poking their noses where they don’t belong were quite uncomfortable discussing reproduction and reproductive problems in detail. I admit I took some joy in that.
My wife’s brother was the biggest source of grief to us during that time. Ironically, he and his wife also had fertility problems. But once they had their first child, he seemed to forget all of the heartache, discomfort, and stress associated with infertility and kept badgering my wife about having kids. Just when I had almost reached a breaking point and was about to tell him off (most likely with my fists), wifey’s other brother stepped in and took him to task over it. He had apparently forgotten how bad it made his wife feel when people pestered them about having kids and how defensive he would get.
I am sorry about your struggle, RT, Eric, and NE.
In light of evolutionary biology, one cannot justify the notion that parenthood is the ultimate expression of virtue. There is a heavy dose of self-interest involved. The pain of childless couples illustrates that powerfully.
Anyways, if we treat our children as status symbols that will not only pain childless couples but this attitude will damage our children as well. It constrains our capacity to love them unconditionally. Especially, when they turn out to be less than perfect.
That’s inevitable and that’s when they need our love the most.
My family is in a different boat - I had a vasectomy at age 36 back in 2004. I am childfree, meaning that I have chosen not to have children. I have known since I was in high school that I didn’t want to have kids. My wife and I are going to be married 3 years this June. She is ambivalent about kids - she wouldn’t mind having a child, but is also OK being childfree.
I read something on a blog long ago that is my standard answer to any busybody who prods us on why we have no kids: “We are saving up to buy a boat”. After they pick their jaw up off the floor I tell them I’m kidding, and that we just choose to be a family of two.
I am not anti-kids (as long as they are quiet and respectful) nor do I have a political agenda. I simply do not want the responsiblity of being a father. But if another family wants kids, that’s great, and I feel bad for those who do want them who can’t.
I hope everybody can have what their heart desires, be it kids or no kids or a ham sandwich.
NE,
You have my deepest sympathy. Your experience sounds almost identical to my wife’s. She was called to the nursery during the time we were first really trying to get pregnant and going through all sorts of medical procedures. She hated going to church and our activity dropped off badly until she was released.
Mother’s day was always the worst day of the year for her. The thing she wanted most, to be a mother, was the one thing she couldn’t have and Mother’s day just rubbed it in her face. Father’s day was never a big deal for me (I don’t put much stock in made-up holidays), but she would always feel bad for not being able to make me a father.
I am one of those people who always assume that people who don’t have children, or who haven’t had any in a while, are childless or “done” for their own good reasons. However, I rarely think of infertility as one of those reasons.
One of the (few) unfortunate unintended consequences of safe, legal, effective birth control is that since so many people use it and don’t have [more] children, the assumption is that those who don’t have [more] children are making that a conscious decision.
That you don’t harbor unkind feelings toward those socially inept clowns who feel that it is acceptable to comment on your family size is admirable.
Ms. Landers (#5) suggestion is an excellent one. I have a couple of far snarkier/less positive alternatives that I will refrain from sharing.
Full disclosure: I was once one of those socially inept clowns. I only made the mistake once.
There are six years between our first child and second. My wife is half chinese; it is kind of funny but our first son looks like me. Our second child looks much like my wife. This brings all kinds of questions of whether this is our second marriage; whether we had trouble having kids; when we will have more; do our boys get along being six years apart; etc. There is so much nosiness that it sometimes leaves me to feel “outside the plan” even though we have kids. Are other faiths so “one size fits all” about exaltation like Mormonism seems to be?
My wife usually answers very abruptly and pointedly to such inquiries by saying something like, “Oh, do you work for Planned Parenthood?” or “Are you a pharmacist? I need my prescription filled.” I usually try to change the subject or even occasionally state my position: “I believe every child should be wanted and welcomed. We have never predefined the quality of our family by the quantity of children. Our answer for children is always ‘no’ until the Spirit moves upon us to accept more.” Women are much more nosy with her but I’m surprised how many prying men I meet given how this is not a subject men usually discuss with each other.
I just find this subject very private. But given how “Pharisaically” Mormon culture operates, and with all the invasions of privacy via compulsory interviews and what not, it just doesn’t seem that many Mormons are reared with a sense of personal propriety. In other words, I question: has the LDS culture been deliberately designed to condition Mormons to be so nosy?
NE,
It does get harder, unfortunately. For years, I was just wistful. Now, I feel a nasty spark of jealousy every week as we sit in the chapel, surrounded by families.
Ann Landers, your advice is well-taken, and thanks.
eric, thanks for your comment. I agree that tact can be a lot to ask, but I try to avoid the soft bigotry of low expectations…
NE, thanks for sharing your experience on this. I sympathize completely with your comments, and I think our experience has been pretty similar on this.
Serenity Valley, I love you! And have very little to add to your comment!
Capt. Obsidian, thanks for your experience, as well. It’s helpful to hear from other people who’ve gone through this, and it’s especially nice to hear from someone who actually did manage to have a kid! So, thanks!
Hellmut, I’m neither an evolutionary biologist nor a parent, so I can’t really respond adequately to your thought-provoking ideas. But thanks for adding them to the conversation!
Phouchg, let me be the first to wish you a happy ham sandwich!
Ann, perhaps you could share your snarky alternatives with Serenity and me via email; I’d hate to miss out!
Couple of quick comments.
I have had both the pain of infertility (4 years) and the joys of lots of children being born. (4-5)
1. I would honestly start telling people that you have fertility issues and desire a child (s)
2. I am pretty sure that Childless married people in Orthodox Jewish settings and other conservative religious settings field the same types of questions.
I also know why LDS SAHM families react to Childless 2 income married couples negatively……..(LDS SAHM complain about this a lot but more so about non LDS couples and the way the world is going concerning families, birthrates etc)
1. The popular culture seems to be negative towards large SAHM hetero families. So the childless in a ward surrounded by SAHm families are often seen to be in league with the ways of the world. People take out their frustrations with the popular bias against SAHM families on fellow members who they think know better
2. A lot has been sacrificed to be large SAHM families. travel, education, clothes, cars, eating out. Hence the SAHM families are JEALOUS (sin) of the childless couple that travels, wears nice threads etc.
3. There are now more and more “power” LDS highly educated no kids/one kid families. The SAHM large families regard these families as having gone the way of the world and lack the focus on the family that the SAHM have.
You are getting labeled/judged unrighteosly (See john
and it will continue unless you start to tell people about your fertility issues.
It’s not our place to enforce our notions of family on others.
RT,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I think my wife and I might be an anomoly in the church. We’ve been married almost six years and we’re still childless (by choice, though we’re on the verge of beginning to try) and I can’t think of a single disparaging remark from anyone (other than my mom) either in church or out of it. People ask if we have kids, we say no and then we talk about ham sandwiches. (part of it might be that we live in New York where anyone married under the age of 30 is crazy and anyone with more than two kids is insane… my wife is 26 right now…)
It makes me sad that you (and anyone else) have had to suffer both the pain of not being able to conceive and that others (Saints) have added to that pain rather than alleviated it. My prayers are with you.
Mainstream Member,
Yeah, I guess I understand, and I think you’re right–being very public about our difficulties is the only way to avoid suffering others’ prejudice. The thing is, such attitudes are prejudice. And that bugs me. In giving out intimate details of my medical life, I often feel… well, a little violated. It’s private, you know? I hate that it’s the only way to avoid being treated like we’re deeply selfish people; and I hate that people think it’s okay to use us (or even to use voluntarily childless couples) as emotional scapegoats.
I’m not blaming you for the ills of the world, of course. Your advice is sensible; and maybe it will help people change their assumptions about people in our situation.
I have wondered what it’s like to be a modern U.S. Mormon with five kids, of course. I hear stories sometimes about rude comments from strangers, complaints from other customers at restaurants, and so on. Nothing is perfect, huh?
When my wife and I look at trends and evidence, (and especially even considering the world’s present challenges after reading “The World is Flat” by Tom Friedman) we feel a moral imperative to have a small family. If we were to have more children we are much more inclined to adopt than to birth them. I can’t say this is morally superior, however, to the large family. I just feel as passionate as they are likely to feel. It is not a “worldly” nor materially-driven position.
That said, I wouldn’t preach to nor probe to a parent with many children as to why they chose the family size they do. I’d prefer if we could just find different common spiritual ground as to the primary virtues of living and exaltation aside from family size. I hope such could bring comfort, community and acceptance to all, especially those who wish to have children but can’t.
Its hard to be childless in a child focused church but its also hard to be 4-5 kids in a child unfriendly world to. So life is hard…….
You would not believe the comments we get from total strangers about our family. We even have financial resources beyond the norm and we still hear from total strangers that our family is a burden on society.
As a man I have had total strangers come up to me and ask how much money I make and that they are tired of paying taxes for the local schools and been accused by women of misogyny for having so many kids.
I have even had white people thank me for having so many white babies!!!!!!!!!
The LDS church gives the family like mine a place where we can be the “norm” and not some group of nutballs.
Since we are discussing…
…it seems most of the couples described who were not childless by choice went onto persue treatment and/or adopt. Did any of the women toy with the idea of calling as it was, never go back to avoiding conception, and head down a path of searching for a passionate career instead? I think that is where we are heading, but I can’t quite shake the guilt. Any ideas about how much of that guilt is hormones, culture, or the spirit?
NE,
If you leave a email I have a really good friend in your shoes who can help you sort it out. She is a opera singer.
Thank you Mainstream. Link through on my website for my email.
RT,
My wife and I have gone through a similar experience. We were blessed with two children before a brush with nuclear medicine ended our hopes for more children. I was in a bishopric when I went back to grad school (yea for political scientists!). Everyone just assumed that we had chosen to stop having children and we endured quite a few not so well meaning lectures by people who assumed they knew best.
We later went through fertility treatments and IVF. Sadly our efforts were not rewarded. I hope you find the peace that we have had a hard time finding.
Hopefully now that you are joining the ranks of the professorily employed you will have the resources to pursue all of the options you wish. One word of warning, the alternatives are not easy and sometimes heartbreaking. Again I wish you well…
RT,
My condolences regarding your struggle so far. Due to medical errors and such, we are unable to have more children. Due to financial straits, we do not expect to be able to adopt for some time to come. Due to the fact that we don’t discuss this openly with people, most people assume that our situation (two kids) is the one we want. Many people assume that we are being selfish or liberal in only having two kids (we bear the “lib”-label in our ward). We sit in silent jealousy as other families in the ward and among our relatives grow and grow.
In saying this, I am grateful for my kids and assume that you would like very much to have even one. My children define quite a bit of who I am. I just wanted you to know that even with children, people will assume you are being selfish, liberal, rebellious, etc. That is, of course, until you have too many kids, when you become zealous, fundamentalist, backward, etc.
Just so you’ll have something to look forward to.
My wife and I were married 9 years and no children came. We got the occasional awkward question about why we didn’t have kids, and I used the line that someone else stated above, “Heavenly Father hasn’t seen fit to bless us with children just yet.” The other interesting observation was that everyone assumed that it was my wife who couldn’t conceive, when it was really my problem. I’d been tested and told that it was going to be really difficult for me to father a child. But everyone assumed it was my wife’s problem. One ward member even warned her that if she didn’t “give” me a child, that I might leave her, divorce her, or even cheat on her.
What made this even stranger was the fact that my wife has three children from a previous marriage. I had never been married. So you would think a woman who already had three kids is probably fertile. Yet people looked at her as the reason we didn’t have kids.
We have since adopted 4 kids. We used our county’s department of social services, and it’s been great. We have wonderful kids, and it has cost us next to nothing. I’m always amazed at those who say they spent thousands of dollars with private adoption agencies, when the county practically pays us to be adoptive parents. We didn’t even use LDS Family services. Not that we are against them, but the county treated us well, and I heard (perhaps through long distance heresay) that an adoptive couple still has to pay money for their services. Maybe that’s not true, but we just haven’t had the need to use them.
I will say that I agree with RT that there is a strong emphasis from church leaders to have children. In fact, I think leaders of the Boyd K. Packer variety are lamenting the fact that most Mormon families these days are having fewer children that in times past. At a stake conference a couple of years ago the visiting area authority told us as much in a meeting for leaders. This particular AA had 11 kids in his family. So sometimes I feel like I should be having more, even though 4 right now is quite a handful.
Alas, for a while people would look at the gap between our seventeen year old and our six year old and our professions (my wife is a CRNA and I’m a lawyer) and give us an unholy amount of grief.
I’d talk about the three miscarriages and the three who were born and then were buried and that would usually end that.
Currently, no one bothers us. But I miss my missing children.
The Pecking Order : Which Siblings Succeed and Why is a great book, which explores among other things the effects of family size on individual children.
#29–We have had quite a few friends and acquaintances who were infertile and adopted their children. All who used LDS Family Services had to pay 10% income for the service. In the case of one inactive friend they were denied help from LDSFS because they were not current in their tithing. While this may or may not be fair, in their case using the service would have amounted to 20% of income.
While 10% may be cost effective compared to some private agencies, I think it is not as progressive a fee concept as some of these Mormon friends thought it was. But hey, all of them found children they love and adore. So it probably all worked out fine.
Also as to those I know who used LDSFS, all except one keeps contact with the birth mother. I don’t know if this is a policy the church agency encourages or just a choice these parents made. As for me I question whether it is emotionally healthful for an adopted baby to grow up knowing its birth mother personally and also knowing that they don’t live with that mother…
My brother adopted a child through LDSFS. After they brought the baby home, the only contact with the birth mother was an occasional letter they would receive (one per year). The letters were sent to LDSFS and forwarded to my brother, so the birth mother had no direct contact with the family. This was only done because my brother and his wife agreed to it, and I think they stopped it when the baby was about 2.
In addition (IIRC), you can only adopt through LDSFS if you have no children or one child. If you already have 2 or more children they will turn you down.
RT and Serenity,
It is brave of the two of you to be so open in your blog about your situation. Having been down that road before … I’ll add a personal experience.
Several years ago, DH and I moved into our present ward and noticed a small handful of couples who were child-free and had been married 5 - 10 years. It seemed that our little group took a ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ approach to our child-free status. (DH and I attended “RESOLVE” support meetings for people coping with infertility). A few years later …. and within about a 12-month period …. most of us became parents (either through medical interventions or adoption). Other ward members were very happy and supportive as we became parents.
I wish you both well during the process of becoming parents and hope you are able to find support and peace.
RE: LDS Social Services
We’ve been talking to them, actually. The fee is a non-negotiable 10% of your income for the past year, up to $10,000. There are two significang upsides to that: people who make $100,000 per year significantly subsidize people who make $40,000 (which is, I believe the lower income limit), and it covers all your legal fees as well as state fees, medical care for the birth mother, etc. A normal private adoption runs $14,000 to $40,000, depending on the state, agency, and negotiations with the birth mother. And it’s really very rare for anyone to be able to adopt for less than $4,000, at least in California.
RT and I are going to be in for a raft of massive FBI checks and so forth if we adopt, which in themselves will cost thousands of dollars, independent of normal adoption costs (it’s to do with our travel history–federal law requires extra rigor in adoptions by people who’ve been expats). And if we adopt through LDS Social Services, we’ll still only pay 10% of our income. The value of the church’s fee structure, then, is dependent on one’s home state, preference for public or private adoption, and personal history.
LDS Social Services does have a two-child limit, unless you’re interested in adopting special-needs kids. I think that in those adoptions, the fee structure might be different, as well.
I had understood that the Church recently revised the two child limit. I was told that there is no current limitation.
Prior to that, the limitation was just for open adoption (where the family is placed in a book of potential adoptees for the young women to look through and choose). It did not affect directed adoptions (where you basically find a baby). In both cases the cost is the same and the church provides the same support.
RT and Serenity,
I’ll be happy to lend you one or more children for a short time. A year, perhaps - or ten?
Inquire in the evenings, when we’re ready to toss them out the window.
But seriously - I’m sorry about your difficulties and trials. There’s not much else one can say on a blog, I think. But I think (and hope) that these kinds of inequities will be resolved in the eternities, all of our pains and wounds made whole, and all of our sorrows made into joy. It’s not a lot to hold on to in the face of trials, but it’s something.
mainstream member, I’m sorry to hear that you face derision in the broader world. That said, one injustice doesn’t justify another. I suppose my prayer would be that you’ll be treated with more respect and that people like Serenity and I will be, also.
Rusty, I’m glad to hear that your experience has been so much better than ours. Perhaps we do need to live in New York.
Quix, far be it from me to disagree with your personal choices on an issue as intimate as this one. My concerns with the state of the world typically focus more on issues of distribution, for which Malthusian ideas are not directly relevant–but I know that there are people who share your perspective.
If we do end up adopting, I think I would prefer an open adoption. Secrecy seems more harmful, perhaps, than openness. But that’s all second-order stuff, in any case.
NE, if a career rather than children is the right choice for you, then there you are. I wouldn’t feel at all surprised that you’d feel guilt about this; it’s not the normative outcome in Mormon culture. But there are exceptions to most rules, and if you feel you are one, then that is what it is. Guilt, after all, can be managed, and plenty of people in the world have felt guilty for doing the right thing.
Craig and Timburriaquito, thanks for your thoughts and for sharing your experiences. Finding that others have been through the same kinds of things does make this all easier, for me, at least.
John, your comment demonstrates an admirable degree of cynical realism, and I heartily approve! In any case, I would certainly hope that people would respect your privacy on these issues, as well–but I suppose they won’t…
Stephen, thanks for your remarks. We haven’t lost any children who were born, but we’ve had our moments of lesser grief with this, as well. It’s part of the territory, I suppose, and part of the reason I would ask others to make a special effort at tact when dealing with childless couples and others in similar situations.
Anonymous, thanks for your thoughts. I’m glad things worked out well for you, and I hope they’ll be equally right in the end for us.
Kaimi, thanks for your kind words, as well as the lend-lease children!
By the way, I do apologize if I missed anyone. I appreciate the warm, sincere discussion that’s happening here, and I want you all to know that your comments are valued.
Thank you, everyone, for your kind sympathy. I appreciate it.
Kaimi, comments like that make me think we should adopt someone who’s maybe two years younger than us and expecting their own child; that way, we could just go straight for grandparenthood.
People started asking us when we were starting a family the minute we were married, so much so that I would respond to some ward members that “I had masturbated too much as a teen, and had run out of sperm”. The thing is, it doesn’t stop after you have a child, my wife started getting asked when we were going to start on our second almost immediatly after we had our daughter five years ago. We brought home our second, and last, three days ago. Guess what her home teachers asked her when they dropped of a meal tonight? “Do you think your next one will be a boy or a girl?”
I feel for you both RT and SV, this is a culture seems to define you by your amount of children, or how often a woman is pregnant. I appreciate you sharing this with us.
RT,
I’m sorry that you haven’t been able to have children and hope that you can adopt some very lucky kids soon.
Your post’s message didn’t resonate with me, however, because I don’t understand why you don’t just openly say, “We haven’t been able to have children.” There are lots of circumstances that preclude some people from meeting moral norms (too sick to attend church, no income to pay tithing, out-of-town on ward temple night) they mention the circumstance early and often to ensure that people know the reason for their variation. Lots of people *choose* not to attend church, not to pay tithing, not to attend temple night, and not to have children, and that’s why people who are constrained by circumstance are eager to distinguish themselves from those who fail to live the morals by choice. It seems unreasonable to insist that members assume a legitimate circumstance when they encounter someone who varies from the social norm and never mentions the circumstance.
Matt,
When someone is struggling with infertility, the last thing this person needs to worry about is to make sure that she announces her painful struggles with infertility to acquaintances or risk careless (and malicious) gossip. Although a simple “we’re not able to have children” may be a sufficient explanation for some, many people take this statement as a cue to open up the topic for further discussion and prying.
I find it incredibly insensitive to expect couples struggling with infertility to “mention the circumstance early and often to ensure that people know the reason for their variation”. Church members should be reminded to MYOB, IMHO.
Tess,
I agree that people with circumstances that prevent them from living moral norms may not like discussing them, but no matter how serious or embarrassing someone’s illness is (and there are many illnesses far more embarrassing than infertility), for example, if a person doesn’t want members to think they’re “inactive”, they need to say that they’re too sick to go to church. They can’t refuse to let people know that they’re too sick to attend church and yet expect everyone to assume that they desire to attend, unlike the majority of Mormons who didn’t enter a Mormon chapel last month. But I think this post expects just that.
Members certainly shouldn’t pry for specific information.
RT and SV, I’m so very sorry to learn about your difficulty in having children. I think infertility, primary or secondary, would be the most painful experience I could possibly go through, barring the death of a child. I’m suprised and chagrined to hear that you feel so many people make moral judgments about your status: I’ve had so many family members and friends deal with infertility that, frankly, I simply assume that’s the issue with couples who are childless or have only one child—*especially* in the church, where the large majority of couples *do* want kids.
I’m suprised, though, at your repeated adamance that your fertility status is a strictly private matter. That seems to me rather clearly not the case—particularly if you plan to raise your children as part of the LDS community. Every viable community has an inherent interest in reproducing itself, and thus an inherent interest in the reproduction of its members. It would be lovely if happy words like “community” could mean nothing but unconditional acceptance and support, but of course that’s a highly naive view of a social organizations: all “communities” derive their form as much from exclusion and censure as from inclusion and investment. The church invests heavily in its children and youth as an instituion; it seems unreasonable, then, to expect that it will treat the matter of childbearing as a purely private matter.
(Of course, none of this is to excuse repeated or deliberately hurtful behavior. Believe me, I wish infertile couples felt more at home in the church. It would make life much easier for many of my best beloved ones.)
Matt - I see your point. But this information should be discussed with the couple’s Bishop and Relief Society President (if that). The general rank and file member does not have a “right” to know this information.
You seem to be saying that people who diverge from certain social norms are guilty until proven innocent - and unless people explain their situation to the satisfaction of others, then people are justified in jumping to conclusions. I reject that.
Matt,
Doesn’t it seem unreasonable to expect someone to have to justify their decisions to the masses, be it forced by physical limitations . . . or not? I know of many who choose to not have children and that, as far as I’m concerned, is okay. Is it okay as far as God is concerned? I don’t know, so it’s not my place. I think the bottom line of the post is that we as members of the church should accept all sorts, should not judge others (but for explicit, clear, sinful behavior–which this clearly is not) and move on with charity.
That said, I think (hope) that alienation within the church of those with lots, a few, or no children no longer persists on a grand scale. But there are likely exceptions.
Here’s an idea: what if church members assume that a couple with no children would like to have children, but, for whatever reason cannot?
I’m not sure what the point is of asking someone why they don’t want children, or when they are going to have children. Either they can’t have children, and you bringing it up is a very painful reminder of their inability to have children (try being asked about this when you’ve just come home from the hospital from another miscarriage), or they don’t want children, and your own moral condemnation of them is not going to persuade them to start procreating.
Let people alone!!!
Tess,
I’m not suggesting anyone has a right to know this information, only pointing out that it’s unreasonable to expect members to assume that one wishes to attend church, or wishes they had children, when they don’t. Many people, including several commenters on this thread, have chosen not to have children (if even temporarily), and if someone without children doesn’t want to be associated with this group they should explain their difference.
RD,
I’m not saying anyone needs to justify their decisions or circumstances, only that it’s unreasonable to expect people to assume we belong to the “moral” subset of a population without our telling them so.
Matt - I think it’s unreasonable to have such a dim view of our brothers and sisters in the Church. Whether or not a couple has children should not be the basis upon which to judge them worthy of inclusion in your moral subset. Judge not, lest you be judged.
Matt,
I’m going to take issue with your comment #43.
First, you appear to be asserting that moral norms are social norms. I disagree. It is possible that social norms are not moral.
You examples are inapt, IMO. Tithing is a personal matter, between the couple and the bishop. I simply cannot imagine anyone but a bishop asking “Why don’t you pay tithing?” There are lots of good reasons to not be at ward temple night. Serving neighbors, attending a daughter’s game, working with the missionaries, shift work. In the case of people who are active, serving, and doing their best to do their best, (I assume this is the case with RT and SV) why can’t we just assume that there is a good reason, personal in nature, and leave it at that?
President Hinckley’s biography has some great examples of our prophet as a young man, keeping the ward busybodies at bay and protecting his family’s privacy.
Matt,
See, this is exactly the problem we’ve been facing. Plenty of people in our church assume that because we don’t have kids, we’re bad, selfish folks. The only way for us to dispel that notion is to anticipate others’ bigotry and preemptively share details of my series of physically and emotionally painful miscarriages. This is what we’ve resorted to; we’ve chosen to make ourselves the subjects of gossip and pity, because it’s the only way to achieve anything like acceptance. And it’s humiliating. How would you like to walk around in a city full of people who value machismo above all else and tell everyone you meeet that you’re impotent? That’s a good analogy for what an infertile woman experiences in the Mormon church–we live in a culture that says childbearing is the great purpose of our lives, and we can’t do it. We can’t do it, everyone knows we can’t do it. Our inadequacies, which are hard enough to deal with privately, are exposed to the world. At best, we get pity and unsolicited advice about which medical intervention we should select. At worst we get lengthy explanations of what we’re surely doing wrong, that God has denied us children. We are never treated as normal people. We are never treated as adults. And that’s just wrong. All we really want is for people to say, “Wow, that stinks; you have my sympathy. So what did you think of Stake Conference?”
By the way, I’m not sure why anyone would believe they had the right to expect others to humiliate themselves daily for the honor of true fellowship. If Jay and I (or any other childless couple) were not invested in the church and in its teachings, we wouldn’t go to the chapel for three hours every week. That should be self-evident. I wish we could all remember to, “Judge not, lest [we ourselves] be judged.”
Rosalynde,
Neither of us is naive about the nature of social institutions; RT is a social scientist, and I’m a hobbyist myself. But our church is supposed to try to be the kingdom of God on Earth, not just another institution. It may fail, but I’m no more going to excuse it from its ideals than I will excuse myself from its moral code.
Matt,
You’re way off the mark here. Your approach seems to be (1) start with a moral norm a responsibility to have children, and (2) apply a guilty-until-proven-innocent standard.
I see no justification in the scriptures for such an approach. In fact, we get numerous statements and lessons that guilty-until-proven-innocent is exactly the wrong approach.
The problem lies with those members who judge and gossip and assume the worst — _not_ with members undergoing trials or difficulties, who are understandably reluctant to broadcast intimate details about their personal lives into the ward gossip mill.
So what are we to make of the recent comments in the Ensign about how many married people in the world are choosing not to have Children and that this is a bad thing?
I do agree that unless a childless couple comes out and announces that that they hate children and will not be having any that we should leave them alone etc.
What should the response (if any) be to the 2 income power LDS couple that has made a conscious decision to not have children and is open about it? I have a couple in my ward like this that I am friends with. They are in their late 30’s married for 10-12 years and have told me that they like travel, nice things more than kids.
One of the things (which I alluded to before in questioning the extent to which fertily challenged couples go to in order to achieve parenthood) which I think those like Matt who feel you are required to explain or therefore lumped in with the diviants of sorts that is particular to fertility is this:
We live in a day in age where the options are staggering as far as what you can do to potentially become a parent. This in and of itself is overwhelming to the couple but also opens the door for far too many back seat drivers.
Getting past the damaged goods feeling infertile couples often face (which in its own right ought to be enough to answer why someone wouldn’t humiliate themselves daily for acceptance), people tend (in my experience about 70% of people) not to leave the fact that you are challenged alone. They want the nitty gritty details…. Why are infertile, who have you seen about it, what have you done, have you talked to LDSFS about adopting? Some ask this with sensitivity, but many do it in such a way that it comes across as judgemental… WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT YOU SHOULD DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE FOR MULTIPLE (at least 3 seems to be the LDS ok level) CHILDREN.
And that is where I lose it. I daily struggle to balance of four things: (1) wanting children (2)the physical, emotional, and financial burden of testing, treating, and adopting protocols to get said children including the monthly dissapointment of failure (3) understanding and being at peace with knowing at what point have I crossed the line and am playing God and at what point have I done enough and (4) deciding what to do in the meantime since I want to still add to my community in a positive way even if it is not the most traditional way.
When people pry into the details or assume the details (which they essentially do when they assume you don’t have children because you are deviant in some way), they are making judgements that I cannot even begin to sort through. I don’t want pity. I don’t want the humiliation of explaining our particular situation in order to aliviate said pity or judgment. I just want the space to work though these things with my spouse and God without everyone interjecting their two cents.
This problem of infertility is not the tiny minority everyone makes it out to be. It is laced throughout the scriptures. It crops up far more than you realize in the population today. Yet, LDS culture will not allow individuals to sort though this without judgment. It is no wonder many who deal with this problem (or are older singles or single parents, etc) feel there is no place in the church for them.
Matt, NE, and others,
What we should do is get out of the business of judging others.
Let’s be absolutely clear — any injunction to have children is a MINOR COMMANDMENT. It is _not_ part of the temple recommend interview. It is _not_ required to be baptized. It is _not_ required to take the sacrament. It is a _minor commandment_. Perhaps in the same league as “are you having your family home evening?”
I’m at a loss as to why it’s the ward’s business to probe and pry about this minor and potentially painful issue, when they could be more productively prying about so many other things.
Which brings me to the suggestion — Matt, your idea of ward involvement in others’ lives is far too limited. Why not record temple recommend interviews on closed-circuit TV, and broadcast them to the ward like American Idol, for everyone’s entertainment? That way the ward could start being busybodies about commandments that really matter! Just imagine the fun that would ensue when everyone learns about Brother Jones’s porn addiction, Brother Johnson’s drinking habit, and Sister Smith’s fling with the mailman. Also, tithing settlement results should be posted on the chapel doors. After all, all of those are commandments that actually matter in our theology. And if it’s the ward’s business who is infertile — the better to judge them for their sins — then it is certainly the ward’s business who is struggling with porn, gambling, adultery, word of wisdom, and so forth. Right?
Matt, thanks for your comments. If nothing else, your remarks demonstrate that we’re not imagining or misinterpreting the attitudes I’ve described in the post itself. However, I agree with the various responses to your ideas. In particular, the scriptures disagree with your idea that people need to provide some sort of public excuse for deviating from the Mormon norm. Consider this one:
Childlessness when children are wanted is painful in itself; your approach adds to the pain of those already suffering by requiring them to talk about it all the time. I might note that, when we do raise the issue preemptively, that has social costs, as well; some people don’t want to be privy to our personal issues…
I can understand how your approach to this might make sense to you, if you’ve never experienced infertility. But I guess what I’m asking is for you to try looking at things from the other point of view.
Rosalynde, the institution of the church is what it is, and I have no illusion that the conversation in this post will change anything. (When do any of our posts really change the world?) But I do hope that some of the people reading this might rethink their personal behavior.
The church does indeed favor childbirth; but that stance can be compatible with compassion, tact, and discretion. In any case, I don’t really care that much if people think that my wife and I are choosing to frustrate the Lord’s purposes in life, etc. Don’t get me wrong; it would be nice if that weren’t the default assumption. But if people would just make that assumption and keep it to themselves, that would be perfectly acceptable…
NE, thanks for your remarks. You’re absolutely right, and we have the same set of painful and recurring frustrations with infertility. In our particular case, discussing the possibility of adoption (which always comes up) is doubly rewarding for everyone involved because it raises the fact that we’re a poor graduate student couple who can’t qualify with adoption agencies! So, you see, once the personal disclosure starts, it never ends…
Kaimi, you’ve clearly got a second career available to you at the Fox network if you get sick of your current job.
mainstream member, I understand your frustration on this. Let me just point out that some people say that they’ve decided not to have children because it’s a less painful thing to talk about in public than struggles with infertility. There are also people who’ve genuinely made such a decision, but distinguishing between these groups isn’t easy.
Nor, I guess, is it really our responsibility to distinguish. While the church does encourage childbirth, the General Handbook of Instructions states that decisions about the number and frequency of children are to be made by the husband and wife in consultation with the Lord, and not by the community as a whole… I would suggest that sacrament meeting talks, sunday school lessons, and priesthood/relief society lessons with related themes would be an appropriate opportunity to reinforce the general principle that having children is central to our mortal mission. In one-on-one sorts of interactions, there’s a much more serious risk of causing emotional pain to innocents.
But RT,
We live in a fallen world and there will be busybodies everywhere in any congregation of conservative childbearing people. If we were a liberal church with few and no kids and you had 4-5 people would be gossiping and telling you to stop having kids you crazy fundie
As a part of a formerly infertile couple I also was asked repeatably about kids and simply thought that the people cared about me and desired that I could bless the world with my future kidlets.
Remember that the LDS church is also engaged on the conservative side of the culture wars and this plays into this as well.
Fellow ward members ask me constantly if my brood will be expanding again and I always discuss it openly and take it as a sign that people care about me and want to serve as my kids primary teachers, Scout leades YW leaders etc.
What if the people asking you about it actually care about you and want you to have kids because they are sincerely interested and think you and SV would make great parents and want to see you chasing a toddler up onto the stand screaming during Sacrament?
As to my family’s childfree state, I simply remember what a wise person said:
“What somebody else thinks of me is none of my business”
RT,
I’m not defending anyone who ostracizes or condemns someone for not having children, no matter the reason. Nor do I defend people who ostracize those who fail to attend church or serve a mission. But your extending “judge not” to mean that Mormons should be indifferent to whether their neighbors have children, attend church, or serve missions misunderstands the gospel. Christ’s disciples are *commanded* to encourage righteous behavior and to help each other keep the commandments.
Incidentally, I’d be interested in your thoughts as to how members can help couples who *are* choosing to improperly postpone, or refusing altogether, the commandment to multiply.
Kaimi,
You’ve got the minor commandment thing backwards. The commandment to multiply and replenish was the first commandment, and the one that required the fall that got this whole mortality business started. More importantly, none of the “greatest” commandments are included in the worthiness interviews.
mainstream member, you’re right to point out that people are probably sincere in wanting us to have children. That’s useful to remember when people are (inevitably) tactless or unkind about this stuff. But I should point out that I’m not assuming otherwise. Nor is it the case that intrusiveness on this stuff is undesirable because of people’s motives. It’s undesirable because our fertility is a private and painful matter. (Ours, I suppose, is rather less private now than it was a few days ago; but that’s okay.)
Matt, I don’t think people ought to be indifferent. Rather, they should perhaps be sensitive. There is, after all, a difference.
My suggestion to mainstream member in comment #59 suggests, I think, a reasonable approach to your question about helping people who choose not to reproduce.
RT,
One final point about your “nosy” fellow church members.
People with lots of kids tend to be really open about pregnancy, Childbirth, numbers of children ETC. You should hear some of the stuff that gets talked about when my wifes LDS SAHM friends come over. So they take this mindset and then the start blabbing to you not realizing that its painful to you.
RT,
I agree that we must be sensitive about personal and worthiness concerns, but understood your initial post to be more than an observation that some Mormons are insensitive.
Mark IV (Comment 52),
I don’t think your rule works because it requires us to assume EVERYONE keeps the commandments: we must assume that those who appear to be off-the-strait-and-narrow (inactives, those who won’t serve, etc.) are just refusing to tell us the circumstances that excuse their behavior.
What on earth is wrong with assuming that everybody is keeping the commandments? We’re all adults, right?
The world is not full of wicked “others” out to lure us away from our righteous choices. The world is full of regular people, playing the hands they’re dealt, doing the best they can with what they have to make a good life for themselves and their families.
We’re allowed to be different in how we choose to live our lives. We don’t all have to do the same things or be the same kind of people in order to be good, productive, useful human beings.
The church has guidelines. We should assume that people who show up more Sundays than not are trying to live those guidelines to the best of their ability. Furthermore, we should assume that they know the guidelines. We then become to appreciate them for who they are and what they can bring to a relationship, rather than “fixing” them because they are not doing things the same way we choose to.
Yeesh.
Matt Evans,
If one of us a bishop, then it’s our job to worry about our ward members’ (and only our ward members’) worthiness concerns. Otherwise, it’s really none of our beeswax. We’re just not supposed to put our own caveats on Christ’s instructions; He commands us not to judge, and so we shouldn’t judge. And if we just can’t help judging, or if we can’t figure out how to reconcile our other ideas about morality with this commandment, we can still remember His greatest commandments: Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself.
He dined willingly with publicans and sinners, so I’m not sure why we’d shun those without children (voluntarily or not). Or anyone else, for that matter. Even actual sinners.
If you’re someone with a large family and you have a conviction that everyone else should follow suit, then show us all how happy it’s made you. Follow our Saviour’s example and teach, well, by example. And please, please, save people in my situation and my husband’s situation some pain; don’t make assumptions about others’ motivations. What’s that old scripture mastery about man looking at outward appearances while God looks at the heart?
Mainstream Member,
Yes, exactly, people don’t think about the pain they unintentionally cause others. That’s one of the reasons RT wrote this post–to provide people with no history of infertility with information about our experience. To spare others in our situation some pain.
Matt,
First commandment, huh? Um, chronological order doesn’t mean much, does it. That is, unless you plan on going around judging people for failure to prove that they haven’t partaken of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And that they’re not building an ark.
Personally, until I see a signed affidavit from you indicating that you haven’t partiaken of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of goodd and evil, I’m going to assume that you’re a reprobate sinner headed straight to hell. And I’m going to tell the rest of the ward about it.
That’s the approach, right? Privilege commandments which come early in the chronology, and assume guilt until proven innocent.
Also, I’d like to see some demonstration that you’re working on your ark and collecting two of every creature, to store in it. Until I see proof otherwise, I’m going to assume you’re breaking that one, too. And chronologically speaking, that’s a pretty important one as well.
Serenity,
As I said to RT, I’m not defending anyone who ostracizes someone who doesn’t have kids, no matter the reason, just as I wouldn’t defend anyone who ostracizes someone who doesn’t attend church or doesn’t serve a mission. The gospel teaches us that, contrary to Cain, we are our brothers keepers; we must “strengthen the feeble knees” and all. For that reason I think it’s wrong to begrudge those people who mistakenly think our knees might need strengthening — they may just be doing the best they can to comfort someone they think needs spiritual comfort. Yes, many times people are unwittingly insensitive in their attempts to encourage and uplift us, and sometimes they may not trying to help as much inflating their ego. But the best way to correct a “concerned” neighbor who wrongly fears we may have wandered because we haven’t gone to church in six weeks, or had children in six years, isn’t to shame them but simply to inform them that circumstances have kept us from the righteous desires of our hearts.
Kaimi,
We should encourage people to live better, and when we think someone could use some encouragement or a sympathetic ear, we should offer it. We’ll learn that some of these people didn’t need our help after all, and some of them may resent our even entertaining the thought that they could use our help, but we must offer it (sensitively!) nonetheless when we think it’s needed because some people really do need our help, and we are our brothers’ keepers.
Matt,
I agree that we should encourage people to live better. However, we shouldn’t press people to discuss sensitive things, and we should be very cautious in our endeavors. It is indeed a fine line between appropriate sympathy and love for others, and inappropriate gossip and backbiting. And we should be very cautious in making assumptions about others’ behaviors or motivations.
It would not be appropriate for me to go up Brother Jones in my ward and say “Hi, Brother Jones. I’ve noticed that you have an e-mail account. This suggests that you can access the internet. Brother Jones, do you have a problem with internet pornography?”
This despite the fact that it is certainly _possible_ that Brother Jones has a problem with internet porn, and _possible_ that he could use support. Nevertheless, it’s not my place to go around making these assumptions and then asking him to justify himself to me. The absurdity of such an approach is, I hope, seen in the hypothetical.
“…we must offer it (sensitively!) nonetheless when we think it’s needed because some people really do need our help…”
Why do people without children need your help?
Matt,
If my statement—that others’ unkind assumptions hurt my feelings—makes someone feel shame, it might be wise for them to consider their own behavior. The beam in one’s own eye, you know? And I can’t help but think that if someone approaches me about my lack of children in a manner designed to make me feel shame, well, they’d better be prepared to take what they attempt to dish out.
It’s just not reasonable to say, “Don’t you understand? In asking others to avoid treating you cruelly, you’re making them uncomfortable.”
RT and SV
I am coming late to this thread, but I wanted to thank you for sharing your story. My wife and I are infertile and have gone through everything you have mentioned. We were able to adopt 2 beautiful little girls through LDSFS, and it has been the most wonderful experience. My wife and I are co chairs for LDS FSA (families supporting adoption) in the Ohio W.V area and have come to find that getting together with other infertile couples on a regular basis has been very therapeutic. It is so comforting to listen and share with others, who are experiencing the same thing that we are, especially since we lack that opportunity at church around couple with children
I also wanted to clear up some LDSFS misconceptions.
1. There is no longer a limit to the amount of children that you can adopt.
2. Open adoptions through LDS are determined by the adoptive couple and the birth parent, there is no policy that forces you to be more open that you wish.
3. IMO, open adoptions are usually very positive, and can be very healing, for all involved.
Phouchg,
I don’t know that anyone without children needs *my* help, but there are many couples who are not receiving the blessings from keeping the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. Someday we may be prompted to say or do something that will help these couples turn to God and receive the joy and rejoicing he’s promised to those who obey this commandment.
SV,
No one should treat you cruelly or shamefully; I was drawing the distinction between saying that people should be sensitive in the way they approach this subject and saying that they are wrong to broach the subject at all. The courteous response of an infertile couple to a question about their lack of children is, “We haven’t been able to have children.” There’s no need to tell them to mind their own business, or the condescending “since you’ve injected yourself into our family life, include us in your daily prayers,” etc. Nothing here suggests you have done any of these, but some of the earlier commenters seemed to think it would be funny to shame the person who asked.
Oh dear, SV, I am an incorrigible pedant, aren’t I? Many apologies for seeming to talk down to the pair of you; I have the highest respect for your intellects, and I wish you joy.
RT said:
“We’ve been married for almost six years and we still have no children. This is a source of some sadness and great deal of disappointment to us; we first started trying to get pregnant a couple of months after we were married. And yet here we are. Serenity is currently going through a cycle of medical testing to see if there are solutions available for our particular difficulties, and if not we’re going to register to adopt…”
RT, thanks for your thoughts on this topic. Believe me, I know where you’re coming from. Until about 10 days ago, I could have typed the above post excerpt almost verbatim to describe my and my wife’s recent trials. We have been married for almost 7 years, have been trying to get pregnant for several of them, and we were about to move on to really, really expensive fertility treatments (as opposed to really expensive fertility treatments we’ve already tried). Failing that option, we had been considering adoption, and I even had a bunch of adoption-related posts lined up for publication at BCC (O.K., so the posts were only in my head, but still …)
Fortunately, I am happy to say that my wife and I found out that she is pregnant about 10 days ago. We were shocked and delighted, as we assumed it would never happen naturally. Moreover, she was actually 5 months along, which meant that we didn’t have to go through a torturous first trimester of wondering she would have a miscarriage.
I’m not sure if sharing this is in bad taste in this context, given the struggles I know you and many others have had. My apologies if it is. But believe me I know how difficult childlessness can be.
And yet … I must confess that there is one area where I don’t relate. For whatever reason, I have never been asked an awkward, inappropriate or insensitive question about my childlessness from other members of the Church (unless I’ve just forgotten). I know many who have received such questions (or comments), and quite frankly, I expected to receive them myself (I actually have quite a collection of pithy responses on file just for the occasion). I remember at BYU how common boneheaded comments were in this area. But for whatever reason, I haven’t had the bad experiences. Maybe people were afraid I’d bite their head off or something. I just don’t know.
I wish I knew what to make of the apparent unfairness that so many have to go through in struggling to bear children. But I don’t.
Aaron B
Thanks, Aaron, for sharing your experience and your sympathy. And wow, congratulations! You must be scrambling to get ready for the big event…
Wow I’ve been missing out on the fun!
If “feeble knees” need strengthening how about shutting up, opening up one’s eyes, ears and heart, and waiting to hear from someone who ASKS for help? We’re not talking life and death or issues of great evil here. It’s quite all right to be a quiet, supportive, tolerant human being who assumes the best of their fellow spiritual travelers regardless of appearances.
Meanwhile family size is not governance to sin such that anyone besides husband wife and God need be privy, except those they elect to ask for help, advice or suport.
I once had a bishop who lectured all of the adults that only at 3+ kids are parents multiplying. At two or less only then are the parents replicating themselves or worse. Wow, who knew that going to church would give me arithmetic lessons? How satisfying to have my two boys reduced to a mere number. . . a possession. . . a notch on the bedpost.
What has turned Mormonism into a culture of Pharisees?
On reflection…I should have written “Pharisees” as the Christian perjorative context isn’t so historically sound. Given that CoJCoLDS accepts the Bible as true it seems a strange irony that in practice its culture seems more Old Testament than New. That is a little irritating to me. (Paul considered himself a Pharisee, at least when he was on trial, so, who knows, maybe even Christians can be ‘Pharisees.’)
return to your regularly scheduled blogging…
We had some friends who would look at people and say “we are still trying to figure out how to have kids” and that tended to leave everyone speachless.
I had a friend in law school. I touched base with him (looking for a referral for a friend who needed an attorney in Idaho) and found he had been married. When his wife’s heart quit beating during fertility related surgery they finally gave up trying to have children.
I felt so for him, much as I did for a law student I knew who was aching so for children.
JJohnsen (42), that’s the funniest darn thing I’ve ever heard. I’ll use it in the future…..
Matt,
I just think that you have absolutely no frame of reference as to how infertile couples feel. How painful, how bitter, how embarassing, how harrowing, how energy-sucking, how intimate and private this whole situation is. I already cry about it nearly every day (well, sob, actually), and you want only to add to my burdens by requiring me to publicly justify myself. Are you kidding me?
Matt: “…there are many couples who are not receiving the blessings from keeping the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth.”
My wife and I, RT & Serenity, and the others who have contributed have received blessings in our life. Everybody’s life experience is different, and everybody receives different blessings. Do they have to be identical to yours?
“Someday we may be prompted to say or do something that will help these couples turn to God…”
Couples without children have turned away from God? Really?
BTW, I have been struggling with my church membership for quite some time now. The attitude expressed here are indicative of largers problems within Mormon culture. I have had too many incidents where people who didn’t know me from Adam’s Off Ox presumed to tell me how to live my life. I don’t need the hassle, and I am ready to chuck the whole bit and head back to being Catholic. At least I can be anonymous in a large parish and worship God by the dictates of my own conscience.
Aaron, that’s wonderful news. All the best to you and your family!
I don’t even recognize this chruch culture.. I hear of judgemental, intrusive things like this all the time, but it is so forgieng to me. nobody’s commented on our child spacing, marriage, financial health, tesimony/apostasy status, attendance frequency, breastfeeding/parenting/childbirth chocies… all these things people suposedly get pharisical about. I just can’t believe people are so rude. I know the stories must be true, but I wonder, where and who ARE these people?!
PS- and I promise it’s not that we’re so mainstream we wouldn’t be suspect, on any of the above!
cchrissyy,
Maybe it’s a regional thing?
We finally gave up after 16 years, two years ago. My wife’s last pregnancy ended two days after she felt the first kick. She had received several blessings from our branch president and other close friends that assured her this pregnancy would go to term. The miscarriage shattered our branch president’s faith in his inspiration in those blessings to the point that he was released less than two weeks later. She still has a mistrust of blessings now.
The damage that multiple miscarriages had done to my wife made a complete hysterectomy the only medical option her OB/GYN would even consider.
She just had her first visiting teaching visit last week–by a 9-month pregnant sister, whose companion had her latest baby about three weeks ago. Talk about rubbing it in.
We haven’t done Mother’s Day in church since about our second year in marriage. I still haven’t been able to come up with a good answer as to why we don’t have children, other than to tell people it is the biggest heartbreak we have experienced. And, unfortunately, the medical bills have made it financially impossible for us to even consider adoption–a fact that doesn’t seem to occur to anybody when they follow up my remark with “well, you can always adopt.”
CS Eric,
Please accept my condolences.
I’d never thought about the financial trade-off between treatment and adoption before. It’s something to consider.
Skipping Mother’s Day sounds like a wonderful idea.
my sympathies on the infertility issue. I haven’t been there, but I have lost half my pregnancies to miscarriage. not a tenth as bad, I’m sure.
Anyway, I was under the impresison that many adoptions were basically free, due to the $10k tax credit. I know you have to wait a while to get the money back, but if you can save it up and part with the $ for a while, that would cover any LDSFS or public adoption. am I missing something?
cchrissyy, there are two financial aspects to adoption: the upfront cost, which is significant and in fact prohibitive for some people even if the money will eventually be returned. But, second, there is a need to pass whatever financial eligibility criteria the adoption agency puts in place. So, even if a couple can make the payment for adoption, cash flow issues can still make them ineligible.
# 92 and # 93,
Yes, the adoption tax credit can take the edge of the upfront costs of adoption. In a case I am familiar with, the ‘lag’ between the upfront cost of adoption and taking the adoption credit was ’shortened’ due to reducing the amount of federal taxes withheld from income in the year the credit could actually be taken.
My impression is that the financial eligibility criteria for adoptive families is not so ‘high’ so as to exclude middle income parents and that it is common for the adoption fees to be based on a sliding income-based scale.
I also know of parents who have adopted very young infants through the state-sponsored foster-to-adopt program. The services are essentially ‘free’ as the state needs permanent homes for the foster children … many of whom had been exposed to drugs in utero. I have alot of respect for these parents.
RT,
but LDSFS’s income minimum is only $40k, correct? that’s why their lowest fee is $4k , for being 10% of the minimum family income.
This is how it devolves. From a simple statement of “we haven’t been able to have children” to all kinds of free advice about adopting, or what kinds of infertility treatments you’ve tried, or whose “fault” it is.
The unsolicited advice of strangers is not usually welcome in matters so personal. Just my .02, worth what you paid for it.
RT and Serenity,
I can’t express enough how grateful I am to you and others who share your pov for writing them here. I realize how much of a jerk I’ve been to my Father’s younger brother and his wife. They have no children. While I haven’t judged or said anything insensitive to them…well as a little kid I might have innocently asked why I didn’t have any cousins…I haven’t paid enough attention to them. I haven’t given them a phone call or at least a Christmass card during the holidays or any other day for that matter. I know how much my uncle and aunt love me and my older brother and how they dote on us and yet I haven’t repaid their kindness.
I feel like such an idiot now. Reading your post and all of the comments today the gravity of my negligence hit me with full force. I feel deeply ashamed.
Thanks RT and Serenity for waking me up. I know that I should love and show that love to my uncle and aunt regardless of the number of children they have. You made me realize it.
Josh Kim
comment #96,
There is no minimum income for LDSFS adoption. The cost is from at least 4K and not to exceed 10K. So if you make 25k/yr you pay 4k. If your annual income is between 40-100K then your adoption fees are 10% There are occasions when the fee is reduced, like when the child has severe problems.
I find this conversation very interesting. I am still a young bride. I have been married for just over 2 years, and been trying to have a baby for about 2 years. I wonder if some of those comments made by other members is more a regional thing. I live in Utah, and I will be the first to admit, my activity in the church has declined to just about nothing, for the same reasons. We are met with such strange things in church because we don’t have children. I hate going to church now. Not just because of the whispers behind the back, and because NO one has talked to us since moving into our new ward. But just because people have such a weird notion that as memebers of the church, there is no reason why we shouldn’t be having children, if we are living the gospel. Well, then why is it that people struggle with money? Why is that Utah, is one of the highest in debt states? Why is it that people die, and suffer in our church?
Because, we are here to be tested! Take one couple who is on the fence about having kids. Would it be much of a test to them to go through infertility? Probably not. But take someone that has dreamed and wished and prayed for a baby. That would be a big test of faith.
I really do think, that the church in general, does not address this often enough. There have been talks etc, but what about support groups within the church, where you could get together with other couples who are trying to live the gospel? I think as members of the church, where having children has been ingrained in your mind, and is the center of meetings, its more hard to deal with, then outside of the “bubble” where deciding not to have kids, is a norm. Having children is a commandment. I was kind of hurt by someone saying we can’t recieve the blessings for Multiplying and Replenishing the earth, when not 15 minutes ago, I read a talk by an apostle saying, that we will receieve those blessing whether we have children or not. These are mouth pieces for our Savior. Their words are His words. I believe that there is a reason for this struggle in my life. I have made the mistake of pulling away from the Savior instead of leaning on Him. But, it is hard to want to go to church, when you know that you will come home, and cry. I know there are probably couples in my ward, or even our stake, that are struggling with the same thing, and just wish sometimes there was a way to become friends with these couples, so we can lift and support each other, and share in the joy when one does recieve the precious gift of a child.
As for being open about being infertile, I think in a lot of ways, for women especially, you feel so abnormal when you can’t have kids. Men CANNOT understand this, no matter how much they try. God has placed that maternal instinct to create, and give birth to a child. Which is why with some women, even adopting won’t take away the pain. I think by not wanting to tell others why you don’t have kids, you are trying to be normal. You long for it. I know I do….I really don’t think it should be expected that we announce we are struggling with infertility. I think others should just be respectful, and let us talk if we want to talk.
I look at the future, childless, and it makes me want to cry. Because for me, that is such an empty life. For others it might not be. We want to adopt, but we make such little money as it is, even 4,000 would be so expensive. I just hope that as I try to lean more on my Savior, He will make my life whole and complete, no matter what the future will bring. And maybe He will help others to be just a little more understanding. I try to look at my life and realize how lucky I am to be married. There are so many women in the church who would love that oppurtunity. I am thankful everyday, I have my husband to be with. I wish all of you success and happiness with your lives. No matter what they bring.
Matt, is Sherri Dew breaking God’s commandment or devoid of God’s love for not having a family of her own?
RT,
I was behind the curve on most stages of LDS adult life. I left on my mission 7 months after my 19th birthday. I got married at the ripe old age of 28 (LOL). Finally, my wife and I remained childless for 8 years of marriage. There was a certain sting to each delay. Most people in my ward thought I would never go on a mission. I repeatedly had the inkling that people thought there was something amiss when it took so long for me to get married.
But it is the childlessness that was the most awkward. How many times have my wife and I been queried about having children? How many well meaning comments about how good my wife looks holding a baby? Never have I been in a ward when the question did not come up multiple times. I ordinarily would say that we “hoped to have children” some day. I never get into the details, because frankly the details are nobody’s business.
Last year we decided to adopt a beautiful baby girl. It was a decision we did not make lightly. We find being parents after so long both challenging and gratifying. Our daughter does bring us a great deal of joy. A few months ago we were sealed to her in the temple. It was a joyous day.
Having said all of that, there have been many times I have felt that maybe I was never cut out to be a parent. Frankly, sometimes I still do. The idealization of the family has its cost in Mormon life.
Many is the couple that questions whether they were really meant for each other in the grand plan because they experience problems. Mormons tend not to be very open about the real-life difficulties of marriage. Much of these struggles are hidden in the coded testimonies that sound like spousal gushing.
I also believe that there are people who simply do not make good parents. I am not suggesting that you or I are those people. I am simply noting that there are people in this world I would not trust with a houseplant or a pet, not to mention the care of a human being. There are also those who simply do not want children. Why should they therefore be stigmatized?
For this reason I take the view that in the body of Christ, each person has a vital role to fill. It would be nice to see more recognition and explication of these difference alongside the imperatives to have children. Rather than view a family as a rung on the ladder to exaltation, perhaps we could promote the idea that compassionate, responsible, and service-oriented living will qualify one for all of the blessings one desires in the next world.
Having children is a very personal decision. In a world where there are plenty of people, it should not be a topic of community angst to the degree it seems to be.
Schmetterling,
You’re right, LDS support groups for those who want but do not have children would be a great help. Or maybe, to prevent us all sitting around wallowing in our pain, we could have socials of some sort–LDS childless couples’ picnics, for example. LDSFS could send representatives with adoption information, maybe, and fliers for infertility support groups, but the focus could be on establishing firmly rooted LDS social networks among those who understand our situations.
That would be nice…
do you think that this peer pressure, if its intentional, good-intentional, or just plain insensitive?
Serenity- Its is so hard I think to feel so alone in the church with fertility problems. I just wonder how you would get something like that started? Write to the church headquarters? I really believe its a real reason that some couples go inactive. The feelings of being “abnormal” in a religion that is so much a part of who you are is hard to deal with. I think if we could make LDS friends, it would help to face those social problems you run into because you know you have friends that have the same problem as you do.
I was even looking on the net, and I only found 1 “group” or message board that was LDS based for infertility. I honestly believe that the childless couples in our religion are not supported enough. And that shouldn’t be the case.
By the way, what state are you living in?
Schmetterling,
We’re in California.
Maybe the solution would be to write to or call local branches of LDSFS, asking them to organize such groups.
It may seem odd for me, the very reluctant Gay Married Mormon Poster Boy of the moment, to comment on being childless. However, I was married to a wonderful woman for over 25 years, nearly half of them spent trying to have children. After 12 years of difficulties, we finally had our only child.
Our daughter has been the joy of our lives, but I’ll never forget the attitudes we faced during those childless years. Eventually, we devised a strategy that called for confronting people kindly in ways that might make them think twice about being so intrusive.
When some well-meaning ward member approached us in the frozen foods aisle once, asking why such a nice couple didn’t have children, I answered, “Because one of us is sterile.” She sighed, “Oh, I’m sorry,” (implying she was sorry we couldn’t have three screeching children under the age of three in the supermarket) so I answered, “It’s okay, people ask tactless questions like that to us all the time.”
Other answers included:
–We’ve been trying for ten years, but I guess if we had children we wouldn’t have been able to have that second honeymoon traveling around Europe 6 months.
–Because if we had children we’d have to share the ice cream we just bought, and you can tell by looking at us that we do enjoy our ice cream
–I don’t think I know you well enough to discuss such an intimate issue
–Good question. I’ve been meaning to ask you why you have so many children.
–We expect to have more success this year now that we have learned it has something to do with a vagina and not a navel
However, no matter what defenses we put up, we knew we would never be “whole” in the ward and the neighborhood until we had a child and there was nothing that would change that.
When we announced to our families that we were finally pregnant, my mother-in-law (who has a self-declared special relationship with God) rejoiced saying, “I prayed so hard this past year I knew this would happen!” I answered, “Silly me! I guess we should have just asked you to intercede for us so we didn’t have to have sex regularly for 11 years.”
The odd thing was, after we had our daughter people would say, “Oh, one is easy. Just wait until you get your second or third. Then you’ll know true joy.”
I have learned that in this world there is always someone more righteous and perfect than I am.
Buck,
Third!?! I still feel some nerves at the prospect of having one.
Schmetterling,
If you are near the Salt Lake area, we would love to have you come to our ward (we live near the E-Center in West Valley). I’ll be happy to give you details if you want. Our RS president also suffered with infertility for many years and she knows first-hand how difficult it is.
Although we have succeeded in having one child, the infertility has not been cured and we are struggling trying to have a second. It’s not any easier for us this time around (in fact, it’s a little more difficult).
Matt,
Infertility is a hard enough thing to deal with by itself. Feeling like you need to justify yourselves to self-righteous (expletive omitted)s who stick their noses where they don’t belong only adds to the burden and the stress.
As for the question of what you should do about those couples who are capable but choose to not have children, it’s quite simple: BUTT OUT. It’s none of your business how many kids they have, that decision is strictly between the couple and the Lord.
Buck,
“I have learned that in this world there is always someone more righteous and perfect than I am.” Unfortunately, that person always seems too willing to point that out and rub it in.
Captain Obsidian you are right that it’s noone’s business but that of the couple involved in how many children they wish to have. Unfortunately, as you and I both know, some people just love to make themselves feel great by putting people down and telling them that they are letting the Lord down.
by the way, captain obsidian. i love your name. obsidian. sounds cool dude.
My heart definitely goes out to individuals, couples and families who deal with issues of this delicate nature. Maybe it was not intentional but I couldn’t help but comment on the fact that while I did not have a chance to read all the responses, I was taken back with why individuals, with an understanding of the gospel, would even be looking away from our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ for an affirmation of their eternal worth? Why would the comments of others, who obviously do not have all the facts or even an understanding of all the pending variables, matter to a disciple of Christ?
I completely agree that going to church and dealing with individuals who are “not on the path” (or frequently join and leave the path) can be extremely challenging. Many of us have gone to church and dealt with those who are there for social gratification and doctrinal pontificating. Those who have a deep understanding of Christ’s gospel, including those struggling with some of the comments made here, might use the opportunity to rise and shine!
It is not worth our time, emotions or eternal identity to succumb to those who fail to see us and our path as God does. If you are earnestly serving him, who is our master, and striving to live daily by that voice which guides us, the Holy Ghost, then those comments made by others will make no sound.
Consider one of our examples, Joseph Smith. A young boy, who entered a grove of trees seeking truth, returned with an illuminated understanding and an eternal perspective of his own identity. Why would he turn from this relationship to listen to naysayers and disbelievers, and there were certainly many opportunities for him to do so?
Again, I sympathize with your situation. I have very close relatives struggling in the same situation. They are young, and they frequently lament over their inability to “be like other families”. What has been agreed upon between you and your Father in Heaven is what you need to focus on and stand by. All the best.
I’m late to this discussion, I don’t know if anyone’s still around, and I don’t have much to add except I that I’m right there with you, RT and Serenity Valley.
My favorite comments:
A bishop who told us, when we moved into his ward, that during the coming year, we needed to have a baby. (We looked at each other and said, Well, that would be nice! The implications went clean over his head.)
A visiting teacher who told me that what she really wanted was to see someone with kids her kids’ ages. (Fair enough, but why not ask the RS president to be reassigned instead?)
A random church member who told me that the reason I hadn’t had any kids was because of my obvious lack of feminine interests, like scrapbooking.
And of course the people who have either (a) taken upon themselves to fix the problem by offering me herbs, making suggestions about intimate aspects of my life, etc. (b) enquiring in graphic detail how much and what kinds of medical treatment we’ve pursued or (c) attempting their own personal theodicies on me, explaining their various theories about why I don’t have kids (evidently God reveals the meaning of life not to the individual involved, but to the neighbors! Who knew.) For example, we don’t have kids because we need this time as husband and wife. Or their neighbor/sister-in-law/cousin had infertility problems and then realized that it just had to be that way.
Nope, it didn’t. It’s called life on the planet earth. Bad things happen. We have to accept them, sure, but I refuse to believe they’re all personally orchestrated by God to see just how much we can stand.
I know none of these observations were meant in malice, just in thoughtlessness. Still, they hurt, and the nosy questions wear me out.
My husband once told a prying someone that an angel had appeared to him and ordered him to have a vasectomy. It was a beautiful moment.
Zachariah, I’m not judging my worth by silly comments from strangers. But, nonetheless, people do have the power to injure us emotionally. That’s just the way it is; I find it unrealistic to imagine that anyone in a painful situation would be able to avoid feeling hurt if outsiders (no matter how well-meaning) decide to mock that situation.
Eve, thanks for your comments! Your experience certainly sounds familiar. And I love the angel/vasectomy line.
Quick comment, Here is a classic situation regarding this issue….
I took my wife and 4 kids to Cabelas on Saturday to buy one of my kids a fishing pole and to look at the attractions. While walking in 2 members of our ward who have been married for 10 years, no kids intentionally they have told us and others ( we are friends with these people and enjoy them so this is not a fight or anything) They told us that they were there to get their fish/ski boat serviced. Then we launched into a big discussion of Bass Fishing Etc. when they go bass fishing they take out the boat. When I go I take kids and walk to the park
Of Course I was jealous of the ski/fish boat. What is funny is that my income is about the same as their combined income but mine is spent differently due to the number of Children in my household.
These types of things are how the conflicts start between the large LDS family people and the childless. So just keepin it real based on Human nature its real easy to see how this could start a conflict between people.
Of Course since we are friends with these guys they invited us out on the boat so no conflict actually exists
mainstream, I understand that economic envy and anxiety are real forces in all of our lives. But I’m not sure if you have a handle here on the magnitude of the difference between those who are childless by choice and those who are childless with no choice. The kind of economic pressures you discuss could be due to choices about children, but they could equally well (and equally often) arise between two families with children but with clearly different income levels. In effect, they’re part of everyone’s life in a capitalist society.
But those who are childless not by choice suffer a special setback in these issues that they didn’t choose and can’t eliminate. And the truth is, as this discussion thread clearly showed, the childless among us suffer from a serious lack of understanding from Mormons who are lucky enough to have children. Although I know this wasn’t your intention, the inadvertent analogy between your wish to have a boat and my wish to have children is the kind of thing I’m talking about — these things trivialize our situation and are painful to me.
RT,
As my previous comments suggested the only thing you can do to avoid people asking you about your kid status and being insensitive is to tell everybody in your ward about your fertility issues. This is how it is for good or bad or whatever.
You will note that this LDS couple I mentioned have intentionally decided that kids are not for them and they enjoy travel and expensive toys as a result. In effect they are ignoring the prophet/scriptures etc. So what happens is you get lumped in with them by default until you are open and tell people about your fertility issues. This is the answer to this…. “I’m not sure if you have a handle here on the magnitude of the difference between those who are childless by choice and those who are childless with no choice.”
mainstream, here’s the thing: you know about our fertility status and you still chose to post an insensitive story on our website.
I’m coming in very late to this discussion, but thought I’d add that the tacky comments don’t really end even after you’ve had a kid. My parents tried for 8 years to have children– and had pretty much given up, when to their great surprise my mom became pregnant with me. They were not able to have any more children, and in that time, older couples were not considered for adoption, so I’m the only child. I grew up in Utah, in a blue-collar household, but was perceived in our ward as being very pampered because my parents spent a lot of individual time with me, and because they could spend more money on education-related things, like music camp etc. I think they would have found a way to do that for more children, since they were firm believers in education (for girls too.) It’s’ unbelieveable to me as an adult, when I think back, that adults felt it was ok to tell me that my parents should have had more children. Not wanting to lay out the whole fertility history, I came up with, “Well, I guess they just believe in quality, not quantity” for a response. (Not exactly a response guaranteed to win friends.)
Roastedtomatoes,
I total understand what you are going through, it took us 10 years. During the 8th year my son was born and only lived 1 1/2 hours. After that birth, we tried a private adoption, and the natural mother asked for her baby back after 5 month….During the 10th year, my oldest daughter was born. Than 5 years later my other daughter and finally my son 2 years later. I will never understand why it took so long and what I was expected to learn, but I now believe there is a time table for every action when it comes to our lives. We have agency but the Lord does control when we come or leave this earth life….So my only suggestion is keep going, have faith and do everything you possible can to be ready….you never know when it will come…to you.
M Peterson,
Thanks for the good advice. And (a very, very) belated congratulations!
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