We’re proud to present today’s “What Next” essay from David King Landrith, aka DKL, aka Arturo Toscanini, aka etc. Dave is a well-known participant in the LDS blog world, although to the best of my knowledge he is currently lacks a site to call his home. Perhaps in part for that reason, many of us are less familiar with his personal story of faith, doubt, and renewed faith. Thanks, David, for this brave and fascinating discussion of your singular experience!
I became an atheist during my sophomore year at BYU. It was late winter or early spring of 1991, some time during the beginning of my 23rd year. That was the year that I found logical positivism, a school of philosophy that has fallen into disfavor in some quasi-official sense. Nevertheless, many of its tenets are now among the key operational assumptions of philosophers and scientists of nearly every stripe.
For most atheists, gods are like unicorns: there’s no compelling reason why they can’t exist; it just so happens that they don’t. For a positivist, gods are like round squares: they’re defined in a way that renders their existence impossible. Gods are unintelligible, so everything that we say about them is either false or unintelligible. The question of belief (or faith) never arises, because there is no intelligible proposition to be believed.
Logical positivism was the last in a long series of straws that finally broke the camel’s back. As a teenager, I’d observed the regularity with which leaders trotted out guilt and authority and scriptural justification as mere crowd control measures. I’d been disabused of the sanitized, Sunday School version of church history. I’d read everything I could find about the historical issues and textual origins of the Old and New Testaments (and the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham). I found Mormonism as practiced at BYU to be somewhat offensive. I’d found nothing inspired or spiritually redeeming about the MTC, where my experience had left me feeling brow-beaten and humiliated. Plus, it’s difficult for me to feel at home among many mormons.
Furthermore, I’m just not a very spiritual person. I’ve felt the Sprit before, but I generally find myself at a loss when I’m in situations where other people purport to be having powerful spiritual feelings or experiences. There are things that come quite easily to me—I have many God-given gifts. Spirituality isn’t one of them. It’s one of the many things that makes me a work-in-progress.
Among the more cult-like propensities of Mormonism is its tendency to stigmatize individuals for their disbelief. If someone loses their “testimony,” it’s surely because they were somehow unfaithful. I’d internalized this enough to make it difficult to come out of the closet about my own disbelief. The first person that I spoke to about my disbelief in the church was my only lifelong friend. We were in his BYU student apartment at Carriage Cove. After talking around the topic for hours, I finally said, “I just don’t believe in God.” He asked the same question that I’m addressing here: “So what now?”
At that moment I didn’t know the answer. I quickly learned that there isn’t one. Everyone reading this knows that the world didn’t end in the spring of 1991. Life went on same as always. The sun still rose and set, I still skipped most of my classes, and the taco salad at the CougarEat still sat in my stomach like lead. It wasn’t that big of a deal, really. Here’s what life is like without the spiritual comfort of Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost: pretty much the same as life with the spiritual comfort of Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.
What’s the meaning of life without deity? What’s mortality when death is the terminal destination? Bertrand Russell once said, “I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young, and I love life. But I scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is nonetheless true happiness although it must come to an end. Neither do life nor love lose their value because they are not everlasting.” That’s it in a nutshell. Once you see it, it’s obvious.
Shortly before I was thrown out of the MTC, before I had jettisoned my belief in an historical Jesus and Joseph Smith’s prophetic mission and an all-seeing Heavenly Father, I’d found an essay by Bertrand Russell entitled A Free Man’s Worship which resonated with me more than any scripture I’d ever read. One of the more profound passages goes like this:
The life of Man is a long march through the night, surrounded by invisible foes, tortured by weariness and pain, towards a goal that few can hope to reach, and where none may tarry long. One by one, as they march, our comrades vanish from our sight, seized by the silent orders of omnipotent Death. Very brief is the time in which we can help them, in which their happiness or misery is decided. Be it ours to shed sunshine on their path, to lighten their sorrows by the balm of sympathy, to give them the pure joy of a never-tiring affection, to strengthen failing courage, to instill faith in hours of despair. Let us not weigh in grudging scales their merits and demerits, but let us think only of their need—of the sorrows, the difficulties, perhaps the blindnesses, that make the misery of their lives; let us remember that they are fellow-sufferers in the same darkness, actors in the same tragedy as ourselves. And so, when their day is over, when their good and their evil have become eternal by the immortality of the past, be it ours to feel that, where they suffered, where they failed, no deed of ours was the cause; but wherever a spark of the divine fire kindled in their hearts, we were ready with encouragement, with sympathy, with brave words in which high courage glowed.
I know of no clearer description or explanation of the moral imperative to love our neighbor. Though many religious types would have us believe that there are no alternatives to the moral frameworks offered by religions, this passage expresses the basis for what the King James Bible calls “charity” without recourse to gods or a religion. In the end, you don’t need scriptures or deity in order to be able to understand what makes things right and wrong.
Over the decade that followed my conversion to atheism, people often asked me about my religion. I’d say, “I’m an atheist.” And then they’d ask me what religion I was raised. “Mormon,” I’d reply. And, of course, I look very Mormon. Ever after, they’d refer to me as “the Mormon.” Maybe I could have escaped this label—or at least its definite article—if I’d have lived in Utah or Idaho. In any case, Mormonism chose me as much as I chose Mormonism. So much for free agency.
After we’d had two daughters, my wife unilaterally decided to raise them in “the church.” I made some half-hearted objections and acquiesced. (In marriage, we must choose our battles.)
After the birth of our third daughter, my wife claimed that three kids were too much to handle alone at church. She insisted that I come along to help carry her bags and such. I’m not such a great husband, but I’m a real champ when it comes to carrying bags and such, so I started going. I’d already spoken with the bishop, so they knew that I was an atheist. Even so, after a few months they asked me if I’d do home teaching. I said, “sure,” and they assigned me six families. I should have seen that one coming.
A priesthood leader asked me to start reading the Book of Mormon and pray about it. I’d done this so many times before. I scoffed, “Of course I will. I’m not afraid of your prayers!” And I started reading. Much to my dismay, over the next few months I actually started to believe—really believe. It is the most confusing series of events in my entire life. Honestly, in some ways it was nearly as hard for me to announce my belief as it had been to renounce it years earlier.
The next year, our family got sealed in the temple. Our 4th daughter was born in covenant. To this day, it sometimes strikes me as the strangest thing.
Perhaps I’ve simply reverted to the fables I was taught in the nursery after experiencing a rude awakening. It’s not like anything has happened to me that is unprecedented or outside of the capability of science to explain. At the bottom of it, I’m pursuing Mormonism for the same reason I pursued atheism: I feel it’s the right thing to do.
Mormon doctrine dictates that my move to atheism was a mistake. This doesn’t mean that everything I did when I was an atheist was a mistake. While an atheist, I started a family and a career, and I grew as an individual. But it does mean that I would have grown more if my life hadn’t taken that detour through atheism. I can accept that. After all, I’m a poor failing sinner.
I still don’t know where I fit into Mormonism or exactly how repentance works. Maybe I’m starting where I left off. Maybe I’m like Oliver Cowdery, who after years of inactivity came back to find that the church had (in some sense) passed him by.
In many ways, I’m a fairly conventional Mormon. I believe that Joseph Smith translated the Golden Plates, that he restored God’s authority on earth, that God’s authority is held by our prophet today, that this authority is manifest in the hierarchy of our church, that our ordinances are uniquely sacred and efficacious. But in some other areas, my beliefs are all over the map. I’m still a logical positivist, albeit a fairly confused one. Though I believe in the historicity of The Book of Mormon, I’ve set aside my questions regarding the scriptural authority of the New Testament or how the function “x is a god” is satisfied. In fact, I’ve set aside a whole lot of questions. Maybe I’ll figure them out later. In the meantime, I do believe, and I struggle to serve faithfully, to keep the commandments, and to believe more strongly.
I am not a doubting Mormon. I’m just one that doesn’t have a lot of answers. The scriptures depict Christ saying that we should all be like little children. I don’t know what to make of this, except that we need to be comfortable being bewildered much of the time. In this one area, I’m absolutely confident of my faithfulness: I am bewildered much of the time.


Wow! What a story. At first, I thought I was reading a post from a person who left the church and found peace and happiness in atheism and then suddenly, the poster is back in the church. That was refreshing but so unexpected.
As I said before in some other ‘What Next’ series, I need these positive stories. Thanks DKL for this story. I appreciate your writing and your take on life and your comments about your own mormonism.
Thanks for this essay, David. I had no idea your backstory was so complicated. I think it helps give a better picture of who you are.
Thank you for sharing this. All these posts have been moving, personal and thought provoking. Yours is no exception. I have to admire DKL’s Wife for having faith and insight to marry an atheist Mormon when she was an active member.
I’ve sometimes asked myself who would I be if I didn’t believe in God? Why would I have any desire to be “moral?” Why would it matter if all existance was essentially meaningless anyway? Why do people choose to be moral beings if they don’t “have” to? I like the Russell essay. To me it reminds us that we’re here to look out for each other, regardless of our belief systems.
DKL, I disagree with your key claim in the strongest possible terms. Cougareat taco salads don’t sit in your stomach like lead; they’re one of the healthiest items on the menu, although the light and fluffy nachos with extra salsa were generally my on-campus meal of choice. The rest of your points seem straightforward enough, even your inexplicable swerve back to the strait and narrow path.
Please say you are a teacher or a writer in real life. People need good stuff like this to ponder over. Death to Disney! ;-D
Funny how our perceptions can change. Fifteen years ago I was a completely different person, I’m sure I’ll continue to change in the future.
I’ve copied the Bertrand Russell passage for future reference. Thanks.
DKL,
This was very moving for me. Some of the things you said were very strengthening, thank you.
Minus all the atheist and logical positivist business, the following also describes me very well:
I am not a doubting Mormon. I’m just one that doesn’t have a lot of answers. The scriptures depict Christ saying that we should all be like little children. I don’t know what to make of this, except that we need to be comfortable being bewildered much of the time. In this one area, I’m absolutely confident of my faithfulness: I am bewildered much of the time.
Also, I would probably describe myself as a Latter-day Saint–growing up in the Bible Belt where “Mormon” is roughly equivalent to “N_____” has that effect.
DKL,
Thanks for sharing.
john f.,
I grew up in Macon, GA, so I know what you are talking about.
Umm, if you want to post something as inflammatory as that John, you should really post it on your site, instead of threadjacking DKL’s very uncontroversial post.
Meems,
Just a quick clarification, without going into much detail. I was not a believing mormon when I married DKL or when I started taking our daughters to church. We met at BYU and were both active mormons at the time. However, by the time I graduated from BYU (for very different reasons from David) none of my faith remained. After having 2 daughters I decided I wanted to raise them with some religious background, though I myself was not religious. I considered many sects, but chose Mormonism because it was the religion of my family and the one I have the most knowledge of both culturally and doctrinally. So, While DKL and my experiences have similar timelines regarding our losing our faith and regaining it (give or take a couple of years) that is almost all our stories share in common. We have been tremendously blessed.
So, will there be a “What Next: DKL’s Wife” coming up soon? There should be.
Ned, I agree; DKL’s Wife, if you’d be interested in writing an essay, please send me an email. Your husband has my address!
Ned, I wasn’t trying to threadjack with anything controversial, just making an observation from my experience, which someone else has already agreed with. Thanks for the lecture though. Looks like you aren’t so un-Mormon after all! (never passing up an opportunity to lecture and pass judgment–isn’t that the standard criticism of Mormons?)
Oh, I am so flattered! But no, unlike my dashing husband, I am not so comfortable in the public eye. That is part of the reason I am only an occasional participant here. Plus, I have much too delicate a constitution for blogging.
DKL, I haven’t had too much interaction with you in the nacle, but let me now. Thank you. The humility in which you approach the gospel is quite admirable.
DKL, very moving. Your story resonates much with me in several respects. It is very similar to my own (minus the logical positivism angle). Thank you for writing and sharing this.
I very much agree with you, DKL, on this point, because it has been my experience as well:
Here’s what life is like without the spiritual comfort of Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost: pretty much the same as life with the spiritual comfort of Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.
After returning, do you still believe this? Is there no noticeable difference in the quality of your inner life now, as opposed to when you were an atheist?
I ask because when you mentioned that you think of yourself as a “poor struggling sinner,” that you were dismayed and confused by the beginnings of belief, ultimately becoming so bewildered you have had to “set aside a whole lot of questions”…it almost sounds like pursuing Mormonism is a worse experience for you than pursuing atheism was. What makes Mormonism worthwhile?
I see that you think pursuing Mormonism is simply “the right thing to do.” I understand that one does some things only because they are right, not because they are pleasant experiences; they often aren’t. Is that what Mormonism is to you–a dutiful struggle, a lifelong sacrifice? Did your return engender no noteworthy increase in love, joy, peace, comfort, hope, understanding, clarity of purpose, or anything along those lines?
DKL,
Thanks for your honesty and willingness to let it hang out. Maybe it’s just a personal failing of mine, but I’ve never understood how we as Mormons are so willing to speak of spiritual experiences and beliefs in terms of “knowing” when even our knowledge of the most simple and verifiable “facts” is suspect.
I’d have a hard time believing that you were ever truly an atheist, were it not for your present claim to believe, but _know_ so little.
If there is a god, surely there will be a reward for the virtue of our beliefs, irrespective of our ignorance…that would be a just and merciful god.
DKL,
Thank you for a thought provoking synopsis of your faith journey. Though I never left the church, I feel that I connected with your coming back.
I would say your current faith would never “be” without your having left. I guess I’m saying that I don’t feel faith is really a choice unless you understand life without that faith and know that it may not be all that different.
Many LDS members are afraid to let go of the “iron rod” because of what might befall them, which I feel is fear and does not come from God. Those who recognize they can let go, want to let go, and sometimes do let go, appreciate all the more the reasons for coming back, which, in my opinion is an exercise of agency, unlike blindly holding on.
Hi DKL,
Thank you. While I read this, I thought of two passages from scripture: “…to some it is given to believe…” and “…all have not the same gifts…”. I’m glad you have the gifts you have, and that you share them.
I would be interested to know if you think your return to faith had anything to do with your willingness to serve as a home teacher. For me, at least, the gospel always makes more sense when I am doing something for somebody else.
My vote for indigestable Cougareat grub goes to the Navajo tacos.
Dave,
Thanks for sharing. It’s usually nice (a little disconcerting at times, to be sure) to be given a window into someone else’s spiritual journey. And your story, like every else’s, is unique.
“I’ve set aside a whole lot of questions. Maybe I’ll figure them out later. In the meantime, I do believe, and I struggle to serve faithfully, to keep the commandments, and to believe more strongly.”
I’ve got a lot of sympathy for that statement, as it’s a pretty good description of my own life. Good luck in making it work. I think (most of the time) that the trade-offs that we face as church members are worth while. And it sounds like you’re going the right direction.
As for your trip through atheism, and whether that was a bad thing — well, I’ve got a little internal coping mechanism of my own for dealing with the various screw-ups in my past, that you may find interesting. It goes sort of like this: Am I happy where I’m at right now? (Yes, I pretty much am.) Would I necessarily be here, absent my past actions? (No, perhaps not — I might be somewhere different, possibly worse.) Therefore, all past actions are at least sort-of okay — in the sense that they led me to where I am today and contributed to the person I am today, and because I’m (mostly) okay with who I am right now.
(I’ll leave it to you to note the logical errors in that reasoning, if you so desire. I know they’re there, but I turn a blind eye to them, because I like the comforting idea that all detours were somehow necessary to get me to today, and that today is a pretty good place.)
Perhaps we’ll have to chat some time about raising kids in the church. One of the issues that gives me the most pause is raising my daughter in the church. Too many Mormon women end up severely screwed up by the unrealistic expectations put on women. This is doubtless on your mind too, since you’ve got daughters. What’s your take?
“Too many Mormon women end up severely screwed up by the unrealistic expectations put on women.”
Kaimi, (and sorry about the threadjack) are you using ‘Naccle anecdotes as the basis of this argument, or personal experiences?
I found DKL’s story very interesting and thought provoking, and I enjoyed reading it a lot.
I will confess, though, that I have lingering doubts. Is this DKL’s true story or is he just taking us all for a ride (again)? No offense intended to DKL personally, and I’m not even sure if he would care whether I believe him or not. Just my reaction.
Aren’t all logical positivists confused? (grin) At least you could become a reformed one, like Quine.
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!
Dude, you always crack me up.
Of course it is not true. You implied it yourself. It has to do with what we feel. You said: “At the bottom of it, I’m pursuing Mormonism for the same reason I pursued atheism: I feel it’s the right thing to do.” (italics mine) That’s the difference. What you feel. You can feel the truth. It’s the old “spiritual red-light/green-light” game I constantly bring up. Green light says pursue. Red Light says ignore. But it is all somewhere inside that we feel these red lights and green lights. Everyone playsthis game to one degree or another — but Christ’s sheep (like you) hear the voice of the Good Shepherd eventually and hearken (even if they stray for a while).
I actually don’t think “Mormon doctrine dictates that my move to atheism was a mistake.” If you felt the need to do that then maybe it was God himself helping down a path that landed you where you are today… It seems to me that God would rather have an active and faithful DKL in 2006 and on (even with a detour in previous years) than have a milquetoast inactive DKL who never had the … ummm… courage to actually declare himself an atheist and then change his mind and come back anyway…
Welcome back to the theist club, BTW! I wonder if we ever crossed paths at BYU. You were there the same years Kristen and I were there…
“Here’s what life is like without the spiritual comfort of Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost: pretty much the same as life with the spiritual comfort of Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.”
The rejection of an earlier absolutist view of the gospel followed by a period of searching and then a reworking of a religious worldview are all familiar to me. What isn’t familiar is what I quote above. To me, coming back felt like stumbling out of the cold, dark, wolf-filled forest into the safety, warmth and light of the circle around the fire.
Ave, DKL.
Both, alas. But I’ll stop the threadjack there, for now. This topic sets me off, and if I go on much further about it, I’m going to start to sound like The Angry Mormon.
In reading your post I was struck by how truly unique are each of our journeys. Why didn’t you have those spiritual experiences when you were in the MTC or at BYU? My theory is that both our unique spiritual lives and these timing issues can be exlained by the constant interaction of belief with experience.
“Mormon doctrine dictates that my move to atheism was a mistake. This doesn’t mean that everything I did when I was an atheist was a mistake. While an atheist, I started a family and a career, and I grew as an individual. But it does mean that I would have grown more if my life hadn’t taken that detour through atheism. I can accept that. After all, I’m a poor failing sinner.”
While you may have accomplished many different things in your life had you stayed in the church, I don’t know if I would say you would have grown more. I don’t really know you, but I would venture to guess you have gained a tremendous amount of compassion and love for others who have questions, or who take similar detours or permanent paths in life. There will be people you can touch because of who you are now.
I’m really moved by all of these replies. I’ve had a crazy busy day at work, so I haven’t had time to respond. I’ll be checking in later tonight to write detailed replies, but just let me just make the following quick comment:
why me, Nflanders, meems, Dave, Wendy, Rusty, enochville, J. Stapley, Randy B, Watt Mahoun, Gilgamesh, Mark IV, Kaimi, and ed: thank you for the kind words. I had some apprehension about publishing this, because (in life and the bloggernacle) I’ve only very rarely disclosed very much personal information about myself. I’m really glad (and relieved) to hear that it was meaningful to you.
DKL’s Wife (she’s one hot babe), john f., Beijing, Watt Mahoun, Gilgamesh, Mark IV, Kaimi, Tim J., Clark, Geoff J, C Jones, and riverstone: thanks for offering your thoughts. Expect detailed replies shortly.
Wendy and meems, I’m glad you like the Russell quote. Bertrand Russell is an amazing writer–one of the few non-fiction writers to win the Nobel Prize for Literature. I’ve asked RT to put a link in the essay to the full essay. Also, you can access it here.
Adam Greenwood, of all the people I really thought might never read this, you were at the top of my list. Thanks for checking in.
Made me cry. This is going to leave me confused and agitated for days.
Beautiful story. Thanks for sharing.
As with the other entries in this series, I appreciate your contribution DKL.
why me, I’m as surprised by the ending as you are–perhaps moreso!
NFlanders, if my life were a pregnancy, it would be considered very high risk. But seriously, I think that we all have complicated backstories. Nothing is ever as simple as it appears–that’s why there’s a difference between appearance and reality. And it’s a good thing that almost nothing is cut-and-dry. Sometimes, the “complications” are the best parts. And I agree with you and RT that a post by my wife (who is one hot babe) would be great.
Meems, it takes courage to state in a public forum that my wife (who is one hot babe) showed “insight” in marrying me. Hats off to you. But seriously, thanks for the kind words.
Dave, don’t get me wrong, I found the taco salad to be quite tasty–hence the fact that it still sat at the bottom of my stomach. Perhaps your digestive tract is just made from different mettle than mine (I get heartburn all the time).
Wendy, your comment makes me sad to admit that I’m neither a writer nor a teacher (unless you count the deacons quorum), but my job makes me happy to state that I’m in the technology industry. I’m very flattered that you think that I appear qualified to be a teacher or a writer.
Rusty, I’m happy to hear that this my experiences are meaningful to you.
john f., I’m pleased to hear that we have commonalities in our approach to mormonism.
enochville, you’re welcome.
J. Stapley, thanks for the kind words.
Randy B., I’m happy to hear that this resonated with you. Over the past year, I’ve become increasingly convinced that experiences such as these (minus, of course, logical positivism) are more common than many people understand. That was one of the factors that contributed to my writing this post.
Watt Mahoun, interesting comments. I’m a bit skittish about the “I know…” thing. I first wrote about that here (as Arturo Toscanini) at a Times and Seasons thread on testimonies (that’s kind of my first statement of belief here on the bloggernacle–mercifully, nobody seemed to notice it).
Gilgamesh, it means a lot to me to hear how this resonated with so many people. You’re right that my former-atheism is an inseparable part of who I am and how I practice my faith. I think that everyone has to experience some kind of conversion–not necessarily an earth-shattering event, but a kind of self-shattering process. Though I don’t think that this entails a willingness to let go. For example, I’d never claim that my net-gain from practicing atheism is larger than anyone’s net-gain from being faithful. I have a tremendous amount of respect for people who can develop faith while never wavering–that’s above and beyond the call of duty.
Mark IV, you make an insightful observation. I do think that home teaching contributed to my return. I also think several charitable acts (of a more personal nature) over the preceding years contributed. I believe that gospel opens many doors for us by forcing us outside of ourselves, and that this one of the reasons it brings so many blessings.
ed, whatever you end up thinking about the veracity of this post, I’m glad you enjoyed it. That said, it’s the truth–every word of it.
C Jones, I never felt that being out of the church put me in a cold, dark wolf-filled forest. For me, it’s more like I feel that we have all set sail in an ocean of moral-ambiguity. Nor do I find this ocean to be dissipated by the adopting the church’s moral outlook. I’m going to go into this at length in my response to Beijing.
DKL: If it isn’t too personal, would you mind elaborating on how you came to belief once again? I understand that you began to reread the Book of Mormon, and in doing so came to believe. Were there dramatic answers to prayers? Did you just wake one day a believer for no explicable reason? Did you just conclude that JS could not have written the book, so it must be true? Is there more you can say? I want to believe like I once did, but I am afraid I keep drifting further away, and reading the Book of Mormon is, at least at the present time, not helping. If you have said as much as you can, or care to, I understand.
Adam Greenwood, thanks for expressing your solidarity.
Riverstone, I agree that being an atheist was not a total loss. But we’re told that sin is never profitable. That’s what makes me believe that my net-gain from sin is lower than the net-gain that I would have experienced being faithful. But I don’t lose a lot of sleep over this. It’s just the way that it is.
Ann, what about it made you cry? Given how much I enjoyed reading your story, I’m flattered to learn that you’ve enjoyed reading mine.
jjohnson, thanks for the kind words.
Beijing:
You ask some very penetrating questions. I’m glad that you’ve ask them, because I purposefully skirted them in my essay–there are only so many issues you can cover in a single blog post.
First, let me say that coming back to church has been a positive change in my life. I want to state that up front. I do describe how it has been a positive change, but below. But it bares emphasizing.
You may be interested to know the first drafts of my post used the word “baffled” in the final paragraph instead of the term “bewildered” which appears there now. I settled on “bewildered,” because I feared that “baffled” may sound too negative without further explanation. Of course, “baffled” implies some degree of frustration or defeat due to the onset of confusion. And I sometimes do feel frustrated or defeated by the fact that I have to set questions aside–the inability to understand or grasp things is otherwise an altogether novel experience to me.
There are things that I find rewarding about the Church, but I tend to understand them in naturalistic ways. As I noted above, I believe that many blessings of the gospel come from it’s tendency to push us outside of ourselves. I enjoy the fellowship of my ward. My callings and the opportunities they have afforded me have always been among my favorite things about going to church.
One area that I do feel has impacted my inner life is the temple, where I have had some great experiences–beginning with the experience I had when I was first endowed back in 1990. I also do feel an increased sense of guidance. But all this tends to be fragmentary and infrequent. A more detached view might look for a psychological explanation. This is another question that I’ve put aside.
At bottom, it is a sense of motivation that I feel, and this is an emotive primitive. I have a definite feeling that I should be pursuing Mormonism.
It’s not so much that I think of myself as a “poor struggling sinner” as much as that is how Paul refers to us all in his epistles. And I think that this represents well the fact that Mormonism is also a life-long sacrifice and a dutiful struggle.
Does this answer your question?
Geoff J:
You’re right that life without the spiritual comfort of God is (as I say) pretty much the same as life with it, rather than exactly the same. But you seem to think that the differences that I point out indicate that I am contradicting this rather than being frank about the differences. In any case, you’re right. There are subtle differences.
You seem to have a God-given gift for receiving inspiration and (perhaps) revelation, and that’s a really amazing thing.
We need to compare notes about BYU. I was a philosophy major/humanities minor, but I seldom attended classes. I was also a psych TA for Dr. Miller’s psych 111 course and his 400 level cognitive psych class. Since I always showed up there, you were much more likely to have met me in one of those classes than elsewhere.
Kaimi
You bring up an interesting point about the impact of many church member’s views of women. That never really occurred to me at the time, because I don’t know a lot about it. There are things about it that I’m still figuring out. For example, I only recently realized that many Mormon men actually think that feminism should not even exist and that nobody should be a feminist. For my part, I’m fine with the fact that there are feminists, I just don’t tend to agree with them in areas related to the theories of their specific school of feminism. But if anyone tries to fill my daughters’ heads with nonsense about how education is of less value for them or how they are incomplete without marriage or children, he’ll answer to me. And they’ll already know that people who say such things can be dismissed out of hand as nitwits.
My wife can speak for herself, but the way I understand it is this: She feels strongly that the influence of popular culture is much more dangerous than any Neanderthal’s antiquated view of women.
Garf
I’ll try to work up a detailed response to you this weekend.
Wow, DKL. You’re a good writer. I’m impressed. Steve Evans and I have an idea for a new blog and we think you’d be perfect.
Just joshin’!
But seriously, I enjoyed reading your story and I applaud you for sharing more of the DKL your former co-bloggers got to know and love with the rest of the bloggernacle. The whole thing got me a bit misty thinking about the good ole days (if I might be forgiven in advance for reveling in past misdeeds).
I guess what I’m saying is I miss you, man. Keep up the good fight.
Dave,
On your very interesting question of whether sin can have spiritual benefits, I’ve posted at some length at Times and Seasons, at http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2851 .
DKL, thanks for sharing your journey with us.
Your passage through atheism echoes a common pattern of resistance and struggle before acceptance. You’re in the company of Jacob-Israel, Paul, Alma the Younger, and every other true convert.
“Mormon doctrine dictates that my move to atheism was a mistake. […] I would have grown more if my life hadn’t taken that detour.” Maybe. And Adam and Eve should have remained in Eden? It seems that the pattern of this life, as revealed in the pre-earthly council in heaven, is that we all must have our personal Fall/walk on the other side to understand the difference and, by receiving the healing of the atonement, choose to go where you, me, and so many others now head.
And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation […] And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing [by their experiences] good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon […] And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death (2 Ne 2:21, 26,27).
Or, as Marion G. Romney explained the “perfect law of liberty,” the atonement means that having sinned/gone the wrong way, we yet have the liberty to repent and choose to leave evil/false paths to follow Christ’s path.
To me, it’s interesting that this passage from innocence through struggle with God’s way to knowing return is echoed in the names Jacob and Israel. Jacob means “God has protected,” or pre-struggle Eden-like innocence. Israel means “One who prevails with God or Let God prevail” (LDS BD), “God has striven, God has saved” (American Heritage Dictionary), or my own take: “I have fought with God” – the post-Fall salvation.
I also have come to believe that true service opens us to spiritual growth. Maybe it’s because service comprises humility and love, which are core Christ-like qualities.
It is a powerful story. Parenting puts our perceptions into perspective. On the other hand, if DKL and his wife’s backgound had been Iranian then they might have returned to Bahai and felt just as blessed.
I was surprised about your ending because I have been somewhat conditioned to read the stories of exmormons who have found happiness out of the faith. Nothing wrong with this of course. Peace, contentment and happiness can be individually defined and I do believe their peace and new life stories.
But when you started to write about your return to church I knew that I was reading something different. And that is what made it so special to me.
I think that we are all in the process of writing our biographies each day of our brief lives on this earth. Your mormon section of your biography is resourceful and reflective—filled with little in’s and out’s with life situations.
You are also very fortunate to have in your biography an understanding person as your lfe partner. Take care!
they might have returned to Bahai and felt just as blessed.
Ummm, yeah Hellmut. I’m sure God feels the same way you do… Ya know, that truth is relative and all religions are equal and stuff… I mean there’s nothing special about the only true and living church on the face of the earth, right Hellmut?
I very much enjoyed this. I’ve been expecting something like this out of you and I’m glad to have seen it.
“I think that everyone has to experience some kind of conversion–not necessarily an earth-shattering event, but a kind of self-shattering process. Though I don’t think that this entails a willingness to let go. For example, I’d never claim that my net-gain from practicing atheism is larger than anyone’s net-gain from being faithful. I have a tremendous amount of respect for people who can develop faith while never wavering–that’s above and beyond the call of duty.”
I would agree with you. I don’t think you HAVE to let go, but recognizing you can and it won’t kill you makes the difference. That way, by choosing to stay, you have a greater empathy for those who are struggling. The Gospel, in my opinion, is about choices, and one cannot CHOOSE to follow the gospel unless the alternative choice is also viable.
DKL,
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony and how you came to receive it. I have to say that when people have shared their testimonies online it has been very meaningful to me.
DKL, I guess you answered my question as best you could in the space allotted, without giving too much away to a stranger on the internet. But I still expected a more compelling emotional component: inner warmth, whispers of peace, assurances of redemption, burdens lifted, the “earnest of the Spirit.”
Your current testimony looks almost identical to the testimony I had on my mission. That was an unspeakably miserable time of my life, despite the fact that I was convinced of the core doctrines and convinced I should be pursuing a full-time mission at that time. The few bright spots were provided by delightful people I had the privilege of interacting with. But really, I only got through it because I was able to successfully put aside so many of the painful issues and questions. After returning home, I learned through sad experience that bottling things up doesn’t make them go away. But I shouldn’t project. I should take your word for it that your return is a positive experience for you, and try to be happy for you.
My first marriage was to a liar. He lied all the time, usually about stupid, unimportant stuff. Over time, though, he began to lie about important stuff, too. It got to the point that I couldn’t trust a single thing he said.
As a result, I have a very low tolerance for lying of just about any sort, and tend to be very harsh and judgemental about behavior I interpret as “lying.” And I tend to see people who have lied as “liars,” and not to be trusted, ever, because that’s what liars do. They lie.
DKL, this post is a moving one, and the part that made me cry was where you read the Book of Mormon and started to believe. I see the likelihood of that happening as right up there with Pres. Hinckley coming out in favor of naturism at the next GC. I accepted your account of that experience at face value, and see it as something of a miracle.
Then Brian G. had to pop up with his little “reminder.” Thanks, Brian. There are some of us for whom y’all’s little exercise is not a happy memory. Reminding me of DKL’s involvement brought all my “liar” attennae to attention. It certainly did nothing to lend credence to his story.
DKL, I am going to make the assumption that because you wrote this post under your own name, that it’s the truth, and that I’m not being stupid and naive (again) to think that in your case, what I see as a miracle did indeed happen. I know that sounds really snotty, and I don’t mean for it to. I’m not trying to sound like I’m this arbiter of truth dispensing generosity and benevolence - I’m just a schlub to tends to be a bit naive and as a result gets burned a lot.
It’s an exercise in faith. I don’t get to practice faith much; I’m going to start here. I’m going to believe that a miraculous thing really happened to you, because your straightforward account of it rings true.
But please, future commenters, don’t bring up the BofH thing again. It detracts from this post. It raises questions that are not interesting subjects for discussion, but only suspicious.
David, I am proud to know you. Awesome essay.
I’m going to print your quote of Bertrand Russell. I needed something to say at the Visiting Teaching Convention. That’s it.
Hey, here’s another quote, the one I used last year, it’s cool, too:
“In friendship we think we have chosen our peers. In reality a few years difference in the dates of our birth, a few more miles between certain houses, a choice of one university over another. . . any of these chances might have kept us apart. But for a Christian, there are, strictly, no chances. A secret master of ceremonies is at work. Christ who said to the diciples, “you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,” can truly be stying to every group of Christian friends, “you have not chosen one another, but I have chosen you for one another. The freidnship is not a reward for our discrimination and good taste in finding one another. It is the instrument by which God reveals to each the beauty of others.
CS Lewis
David, there is a difference between a mistake and a sin. But you probably already knew that.
I wonder how you are defining spirituality, because you seem pretty spiritual to me. Are you defining it as conformity?
You should be a fly on the wall when the teacher says, “is there anybody in this room who doesn’t want to go to the Celestial Kingdom?” And I raise my hand and extrapolate. They think I’m senile, but I’m sincere.
If I believed as Russell believed, I’d be out of here tomorrow. Extinction sounds so lovely.
Ann, my second husband was a jerk, also, I know from that.
But I think it would be awesome if Brian and DKL and Steve had a blog. As themselves. I would so check in there every day.
Ummm, yeah Hellmut. I’m sure God feels the same way you do… Ya know, that truth is relative and all religions are equal and stuff… I mean there’s nothing special about the only true and living church on the face of the earth, right Hellmut?
It is troubling that you cannot defend your position in terms of reasons, Geoff, but find it appropriate to talk down to me. This incident illustrates the dangers of a charismatic approach to god. Exaggerated knowledge claims legitimize domination, an enduring feature of the Mormon experience.
Claims of divine knowledge obligate no one. There are too many competing and contradictory claims.
HL: Exaggerated knowledge claims legitimize domination, an enduring feature of the Mormon experience.
HL, what is enduring is your eternal recourse to this soundbite. Mormons are bad because they claim to know something and thus, in your subjective reasoning, which you assume to be objective, they exercise domination based on such claim to knowledge. Constant repetition of that meme, however, does not prove its truth.
Comment removed.
Hellmut, I appreciate (and relate to) your veiwpoints and I admire your tenacity.
Hehe… Looks like I got your attention Hellmut.
First, John F. is spot on.
Second, your attempt to play the part of a martyr fails here because it was you that made the backhanded and subtly sneering comment about DKL’s profound spiritual journey to begin with. (#43)
You don’t have to believe any of the spiritual claims of Mormonism (and apparently you don’t) but such disrespectful comments in this thread which is a profession of the real conversion to Christ are offensive.
(Sorry for the threadjack, DKL)
Hellmut, I think you’re not quite right. Claims of divine knowledge certainly do obligate the person making the claim. Furthermore, to the extent that an individual finds a claim of divine knowledge initially compelling, I would say that individual is obligated to at least investigate the claim. But you’re right that nobody’s obligated by knowledge claims they find uncompelling. That’s why I feel perfectly justified in totally disregarding the pope, for example.
Dave, thanks again for this post. I find it interesting how your questions left on hold for later and mine are complimentary. For example, you accept Book of Mormon historicity; I find that difficult. On the other hand, I am satisfied with my (admittedly somewhat rudimentary) understanding of God’s nature, whereas you are not. I’m not sure quite what to make of this, other than, I suppose, to celebrate our diversity…
Thanks, Wendy.
Roasted Tomatoes, your wording is more precise. I had persuasion in mind.
Geoff, I realize that these issues are troubling to believers. When you analyze post 43 then you will find that the first two sentences acknowledge DKL’s experience. The third sentence relies on the conjunctive mood. The sentence suggests but does not assert that things might have been different if DKL’s background had been other than Mormon.
In light of the grammatical structure of the sentence, there is demonstrably neither “sneering” nor “disrespect.”
[Comment edited for length. Please see Hellmut’s site if you want to hear more of this thoughts. Thanks, RT.]
I apologize for not going into more depth here. This doesn’t seem to be the right time and place. For the same reason, I will forgo the opportunity of a linguistic analysis of Geoff’s posts to demonstrate my point about knowledge claims. If you want to we can continue the debate and analysis of Mormon revelation theology on your or my blog. Beyond Ourselves features a post about cheap and costly faith that you would probably enjoy to critique.
Shoot me an e-mail if you want to follow through with this debate right now. Otherwise, there will be a more appropriate moment when I post my own story.
DKL:
It is reassuring that this kind of experience can happen. I have no idea why spiritual experiences and conversion seem to happen to some easier than others. Your willingness to keep trying appears to have been rewarded. I think the fact that you were ‘comfortable in your own skin’ allowed you not to be too defensive when the challenge was given. Your humble willingness to pursue it shows that you are a sincere seeker for truth. I believe and hope that all such seekers will eventually receive that reward.
DKL,
As a champion lurker in the bloggernacle (I’ve made four or five comments, total, in 18 months, but read many sites daily), it takes a LOT to compel me to post anything. Compound that with my initial opinion of you as a pompous, irritating windbag, and I’m simply flabbergasted that I’m writing this. But your post moved me greatly, and I couldn’t remain quiet about it.
As one who used straight-arrow Mormonism for the first 30 years of her life to cope with external and internal instability, I’m in the gestational stage of my rebirth. I dutifully take my six children to church, fulfil callings, support my husband in his calling, and keep up cultural appearances–all while trying to maintain a low profile so I don’t get in situations that call for me to testify that “I know”. I believe that at some point, perhaps only through the bruising crush of a figurative birth canal, my faith will be reborn–your post has made me feel that it really can happen for me.
Thank you very much for this piece.
DKL,
Thanks for this. Your story really resonated with me.
Honestly, in some ways it was nearly as hard for me to announce my belief as it had been to renounce it years earlier.
I absolutely get this. It was so hard to admit that I didn’t believe the church, and almost as hard to realize it could be true. I still seem to sway back and forth with it, but I’ve come to the point where I don’t really care why it feels right, I just know it feels right.
Kaimi,
I’d be interested in reading a full post about raising daughters in the church.
I think that DKL wrote a personal story with his relationship to God and his return to church as his central focal point.
He related something that was not only personal but also beautiful. Such stories do not need to be challenged or slighted. Why? Because it is DKL’s story and it is a part of his own life biography. What more needs to be said by lurkers and other posters who do not like someone’s personal story? Nothing really.
I can understand why Roasted Tomatoes and Serenity issued their policy statement.
Garf, it’s hard for me to explain how I came to believe. At the time that I started re-reading the Book of Mormon, I’d been smoking cigarettes for about 10 years and drinking was quite embedded in my social life. I quit both of these cold-turkey when I started re-reading the Book of Mormon, and I don’t really know why. I suppose I figured if I was going to bother to read and pray, I should at least make an honest go of it. Or maybe I had more hope than I was willing to admit. I also started home teaching–that was easy, because I’d always loved home teaching when I was a kid. There were also some other private charitable acts that I’d been performing consistently for years.
There was nothing qualitative about the Book of Mormon that impressed me. I’d read the Bible nearly every other year as an atheist. And when I went to re-read the Book of Mormon for the first time in years, it initially struck me as a crude attempt to ape accepted Christian scriptures. Prayer was pretty awkward, too. But over the course of a month, I started to feel a pull towards the church, and there were some things that I thought were absolutely impossible that just seemed to be gliding into place. The details here are a bit too personal to go into. But I felt the hand of God in my life–not in a “voice from the whirlwind” kind of way, but in a very subtle way. That’s when things started to move as far as the conversion. I started making some small leaps of faith, and they really paid off.
I must also add that I’ve been very blessed to have exceptional priesthood leaders. The bishopric and the elders quorum president are exceptional people, and they’ve had a huge impact on my life.
Anyway, that’s my story. It’s pretty basic. It’s like Moroni 10:20: charity and service combined with hope gives you faith. That’s about as much as of a formula for success as I know of. I conceive of building a testimony as being similar to assembling a jigsaw puzzle. Certain pieces of the puzzle just fit pretty easily, but others you have to set aside for later. Which pieces fit and which pieces must be set aside varies from person to person. I hope to be able to continue finding pieces that fit. Is that at all helpful?
Brian G., ROTFLMAO. The good ole days indeed! Perhaps my tombstone should read, “He wasn’t such a bad guy after all.” But I miss you, too.
manaen, Thanks for your kind words. You’re reference to the atonement is apt, especially since I’m in such dire need for forgiveness. I like your take on the name Israel.
Hellmut Lotz, you say, “On the other hand, if DKL and his wife’s background had been Iranian then they might have returned to Bahai and felt just as blessed.” I respect this point of view. I have two responses to this:
First, I believe that I explicitly acknowledged the possibility that my conversion may reflect mere cultural influence when I stated, “Perhaps I’ve simply reverted to the fables I was taught in the nursery after experiencing a rude awakening.” If I were Iranian, the fables of my nursery would have concerned Mohammed.
Second, it seems to me that other religions have a great deal of truth. Some of the finest people I know are Jews, and Islam has a lot to offer. People in any culture that return to the religion of their youth may simply be acting on some religious reflex, or they may be returning to the truths they recognize in that religion. In any case, there’s no reason why we must consider such changes of outlook to be mistaken just because they sometimes vary by geography.
I agree with you that claims to divine knowledge do not obligate others. Mormonism requires people to learn it’s truth for themselves. Some people learn it, and some people don’t.
why me, thanks for you thoughtful analysis of this portion of my biography. I agree that I am very fortunate to have an understanding person as my life partner.
Geoff J, we’re in agreement about the fact that the Mormon church represents the authority of God on earth in a way that no other religion can. I appreciate your taking up my defense with Hellmut on this issue.
Stephen M (Ethesis), I’m glad you enjoyed it. By expecting something like this, you seem to be in the minority. Most people seem quite surprised.
Gilgamesh, I think that you hit the nail on the head.
danithew, I’m glad that it’s meaningful to you.
Beijing, I think that our experience diverges on the issue of bottling things up. I don’t think of it that way. I’ve described the way that I think of it in my response to garf above.
Dave,
Nice thoughts. “I started making some small leaps of faith, and they really paid off.” Sounds a lot like Alma 32. And as someone who has to deal with his own jogsaw puzzles — and who occasionally bumps into the table and knocks a bunch of pieces all out of alignment — I appreciate your puzzle analogy.
By the way, I forgot to mention that your statement that “it’s difficult for me to feel at home among many mormons” reminds me of one of my all-time favorite sayings (I first heard it years ago, and I’ve since repeated it countless times, usually in the context of answering the “why I don’t want to move to Utah” question):
Mormons are like manure. Spread ‘em around, and they’ll fertilize the land; stack ‘em in one place, and they just stink.
Laura,
Thanks for expressing your interest. I just may write that post some day.
Err, jigsaw puzzles, not jogsaws. Obviously. I must learn to check over my commments befor hittign sbumit.
Ann, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I want you to know that I am not a liar. Perhaps you think that I’m rationalizing, but I look at BoH as a practical joke. Maybe we’ll need to agree to disagree about that. In any case, I’ve got plenty of rough edges, and my follies at BoH aren’t the least of them. I don’t mean to have given the impression from this post that I’m a saint or in any way worthy of admiration. For better or for worse, it is part of who I am–as are my follies at BoH. If we can’t laugh together over BoH, then let’s make it a point some time to laugh together over something else.
That said, I don’t take your caution to be indicative of snottiness at all. We’ve both got our stories and our backgrounds, and we bring them to bear on the world as best we can. What I read about your background was meaningful to me, and I’m very gratified for the opportunity to return favor. And I’m flattered that you’d invest faith in my story and it’s truthfulness. I’ve been told that this series was your idea, and I thank you for that.
annegb, you’re very kind. I’m glad that the Russell quote resonated with you. That’s a great quote about friendship. You raise an interesting question about how I’m defining spirituality. Honestly, I’m going to have to give that one some some thought.
RoastedTomatoes, you’re very welcome. Thank you for presenting me with the idea and allowing me to use your forum. It’s interesting to hear how our beliefs match up. My wife (she’s one hot babe, btw) works from a different set of questions and answers. In fact, they complement each other nicely. I often find her beliefs reassuring.
Eric, thanks for you comment. I’m glad that you find my experiences to be reassuring. I also hope that those who struggle for the truth find it.
Idahospud, your comment is extremely thoughtful, and I’m flattered that you made it. I’m moved to know that it’s something you (and others) can relate to, and perhaps something that could inspire you. Church membership, parenting, and appearances can be very difficult–a veritable obstacle course at times. I wish you the best with your journey. (And if I may do so without seeming presumptuous, I’d like to caution you not to abandon your first impressions [viz., that I’m a pompous, irritating windbag] too readily.)
Laura, you very welcome. It sounds like we have some common experiences.
Kaimi, thanks for writing your post on “The Spiritual Benefits of Sin” over at Times and Seasons. It’s a wonderful post. And your manure analogy is PERFECT.
DKL: The thing that I loved most about your post is that you very eloquently express that life is complicated. Kaimi’s thread at Times and Seasons about the spiritual consequences of sinning also discusses this. That sometimes the wrong decision actually turns out to be the right decision. And that a few years’ detour off what most Mormons would perceive to be the “straight and narrow” can contribute to an even stronger ability to recognize the Truth.
Thank you for participating in this series and for sharing your story with us. It is wonderful to read your story and to understand you better. I hope your contribution here will lead you to comment and post more around the blogs. Your loyal fan club (chartered by annegb) misses you!
I don’t know which are the greater miracles: reading the BofM again, or quitting drinking and smoking cold turkey at the same time! I did it in stages - quit smoking, met the elders, quit drinking, joined the church. “Quit smoking” was a good year before I met the elders, and I needed self-hypnosis to do it. Cold turkey? Whew.
Annegb: “You should be a fly on the wall when the teacher says, ‘is there anybody in this room who doesn’t want to go to the Celestial Kingdom?’ And I raise my hand and extrapolate. They think I’m senile, but I’m sincere.”
From what I’ve read of your comments in the bloggernacle, I think it’s exaltation that you’re wanting to avoid, not the Celestial Kingdom. I think too many saints believe they are equivalent. You seem on the path to the CK to me.
To put it in oversimplified, but technically correct terms: keeping one’s baptism covenants opens the door to the Celestial Kingdom; and keeping temple covenants opens the door to exaltation.
I think the standards and temple-centric teachings of the church are to lead people to exaltation in the CK, not the lower two orders as mentioned in section 76. We don’t know too much about the lower two orders other than they are ministering angels to the Terrestrial Kingdom, and servants to the exalted ones in the CK.
I often consider myself “less than valiant” which is the hallmark of the Terrestrial Kingdom. But I think I’d rather be a servant in the CK than be in the Terrestrial.
If my earnest goal were the Terrestrial Kingdom, I’d be going to another church where I could drink coffee and have an occasional beer with approbation.
If you’re striving to keep baptismal covenants, you’re on the road to the CK, by scriptural definition.
Well, Anne, it looks like you’re going to have to try harder if you want to stay out.
Sorry, Ann. I thought it was pretty clear that my previous comment was written with my tongue firmly in my cheek.
But I think I deserve your criticism. My comment was not very sensitive to the people I’ve admitted to hurting. I only wanted to say hello to DKL and congratulate him on what I think you and I would both agree is a lovely piece.
Ann,
I suspect that one’s ability to quit smoking is closely tied to one’s innate stubbornness. One of my best friends — also, perhaps the single most stubborn and bullheaded person I’ve ever known — smoked for several years. Then one day, for various reasons, he decided to quit. And from that day on, he never touched another cigarette. It’s not easy for most people, to be sure. For that particular friend of mine, it was no surprise at all.
I don’t know Dave nearly as well as I know this other friend, but he strikes me as a pretty stubborn person himself. So — perhaps because my friend quit the same way — I didn’t find his story to be very surprising. Stubbornness can be an underrated character trait.
Dave and Elisabeth,
Thanks for the kind words about my T&S post. It is (obviously, I think) at least in part based on long discussions I’ve had with myself regarding some of my own detours in life, and how permanently screwed up I was or was not going to be due to those detours. I hope that my clear self-interest in coming up with an answer that I like didn’t taint my argument too badly; I’d very much like to believe that my theory is true.
Elisabeth,
I agree that Dave needs to comment more around the blogs, and perhaps eventually find a blog home of some sort. Preferably one where he doesn’t have to cross-dress. Not that he doesn’t look quite fetching in a cute cocktail dress or sundress — and he has this one mauve flowered number that really turns heads — but it’s just so much work, trying to keep up with Steve Evans in the cross-dressing-blogger department.
Maybe I can get DKL to take me up on my offer to do a guest post … and he can find a place as a permanent guest poster around the bloggernacle …
DKL, you’ve redeemed yourself in my eyes. Not that you had any requirement to do so of course…Thanks for the great post!
Elisabeth, thanks for the kind words. We’ll have to see about the commenting thing. It’s not like I have an agenda. I only ever comment for fun.
Ann, I remember that I quit smoking at about noon just a few days after I’d agreed to start reading the Book of Mormon. I’d run out of cigarettes. I’d always smoked the very strong kind (stronger [and smoother] than Marlboro Reds, at any rate) that only tobacconists sell. Normally, I would have just walked to LJ Peretti’s to pick up a few more cartons. Instead, I just figured that I might as well quit, since I was going to start reading the Book of Mormon anyway. So I did.
Kaimi, you’re wrong: I’m not stubborn, and you’ll never get me to admit that I am. I liked your, “The Spiritual Benefits of Sin” post enough that it caused me to abandon the post that I was working on. It was entitled, “The Monetary Benefits of Sin,” and after reading yours it just seemed too crass.
As far as my activity level in the bloggernacle, you must realize that since Times and Seasons banned my comments, your encouragement that I comment elsewhere might be viewed as an crude attempt at sabatoge.
Stephen M (Ethesis), I didn’t realize that was a standing offer. I’ll take it. I’m working on something right now.
Space chick, You’re welcome, and I’m happy to hear that we’re on good terms again.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I think it should be read and pondered by many.
There are noble moral imperatives shared by many, regardless of their formalized beliefs, and I think we need to be more sensitive to the deep goodness of others and the needs we all share.
[…] In practice, I know from many experiences–first-, second-, and third-hand–that people who lose faith and leave the church are often shunned. Some people divorce their spouses, giving no motive other than change in religious belief. Family members refuse to attend weddings, cut people off from family gatherings, and even cease communications altogether with “apostates” who were once near and dear to them. In our much less intimate online relationships, do we ever replicate this painful pattern? I worry that we do. I find these behaviors hurtful and un-Christian. I feel that God’s chosen path for some of us involves journeys through other faith traditions; my wife’s spiritual story is one clear example. In some cases, those journeys may possibly last a lifetime. In rare instances, the faith tradition that God calls people to explore may be that of atheism, as in DKL’s life story. Who am I to judge whether any good, well-intentioned person is on the right religious track in his or her own life? As the saying goes, God works in mysterious ways. […]
[…] My bishop drove me to a friend’s house, where I determined that my apartment complex had neither sent my security deposit home nor rented my room. So I took up residence there again as though I never left, I resumed my coursework at BYU by enrolling in block classes, and I carried on with life. I stopped attending church shortly thereafter. Several months later, I received a letter in the mail informing me that I’d been released from my calling as a missionary. […]
Your story sounds very much like my story. I became inactive at 17 years old and an Agnostic at age 19. I had atheists friends but I just couldn’t buy into the you rot in the grave theory. The total lack of consciousness just didn’t compute. It took me 35 years to return to the Church. I searched a lot of different religions, philosophies and cults during that time, looking for the truth. I took bits and pieces of each discipline and integrated them into my life. When I returned to activity I found that I had created Mormonism without the priesthood and a few other details. I felt like a little like you do when you search all over for something that you have in your pocket the whole time.
I still struggle with Mormon culture the same as I did when I was younger. But my testimony of Jesus Christ and the fullness of the Gospel sustains me no matter how much I might disagree with with some of the positions that Church leaders take on various issues. I love the history our our Church and hate some of our past behavior towards others, black or white. I know that everyone in the Church is human just like me and will have to serve justice either here or on the other side. I know that God is merciful and loves us. I’m not sure why he would, but I look forward to the day I can know the whole truth of who I am.
Thank you this post and the knowledge that I was not and do not struggle alone.