Over the next little while, we here at LDSLF will be proud to present “What Next,” a series of posts in which Mormons who have experienced a crisis of faith discuss their spiritual lives and aspirations in the aftermath of that crisis. The participants in our series range from individuals who have left the LDS church and found peace and spiritual satisfaction in another religious tradition, through to people who have resolved their crisis of faith in such a way that they were able to become/remain relatively orthodox Mormons. (Exactly how orthodox depends on whether our stragglers get their essays to me in the next week or two — friends, you know who you are!)
In introducing this series, I want to thank each of our authors for their courage in sharing intimate aspects of their emotional and spiritual lives with us. While Serenity and I do not necessarily agree with the opinions of any particular author, we certainly do endorse them all as individuals whose experiences and perspectives deserve careful consideration. Hence, by way of ground rules, I would ask that all commenters show respect for the people involved in our series. Please feel free to offer your opinion or your insights, but try also to acknowledge the validity of other people’s experiences. Because of the emotionally sensitive nature of the material under discussion, Serenity and I will be willing to edit or delete hurtful comments which we might otherwise disregard.
To begin this series, I will offer a discussion of my spiritual life and hopes after my crisis of Mormon faith. Serenity Valley has already discussed this topic at some length in a Mormon Stories podcast with John Dehlin. In a few days, we will continue the series by posting an essay on the same topic by Ann, who originally suggested this series and who was instrumental in organizing it. Then, we’ll just see how things go from there!
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Stories of conversion and of crises of faith are a lot like the proverbial snowflake: each one is unique, and yet paradoxically they all look identical to the average outside viewer. I have perhaps an excess of each kind of story, and I won’t burden you with them today. Let me instead offer the shortest summary of my crisis of faith that I can manage: I lost faith in the perspicacity of revelation. Perspicacity, of course, is in part just a complicated way of saying “clearness of understanding or insight,” in the first definition offered by the Oxford English Dictionary. But it has an added layer of meaning; in many Protestant traditions, a major tenet of faith is the “perspicacity of the Bible,” which means that the Bible is so clear and convincing that it’s impossible for any honest reader to fail to understand the book’s central messages related to salvation. Mormons obviously don’t believe this about the Bible, but we have a tendency to assign perspicacity to modern revelation, which is described as being clear; unambiguous in truth, interpretation, and source; and powerful enough to resolve our major spiritual dilemmas.
A series of difficult experiences led me to believe that this wasn’t at all true. While I have always continued to believe in revelation, I find it difficult to accept the idea that revelation is immune from the ambiguities and uncertainties which infect all other human endeavors. How do we know which revelations are genuine and which are the more mundane product of our own human desire for the divine? How do we know when we’ve actually interpreted a revelation correctly? Do we, as mortals, see “through a glass, darkly” (1 Corinthians 13:12), or does revelation somehow allow us to know even as also we are known?
There are many roads for Mormons who have the set of questions about revelation that I came to be infected with, and I have travelled at least a few steps down most of them. I’ve tried maintaining orthodox, correlated belief, hoping that, like a physician, my skepticism would heal itself. But this route left me feeling like Jesus’s “whited sepulchre,” professing purity on the outside but filled within with doubts that felt both corrupting and inescapable.
I’ve briefly tried seeking fulfillment in another Christian tradition, but the very effort was a mockery both of my faith and of theirs. My belief in Christ was taught to me through, and has been fundamentally shaped by, the atonement sermons of the Book of Mormon. As an Episcopalian, a Catholic, or a Presbyterian, I would thus be more of a heretic than I could ever be within Mormonism.
I’ve also taken steps into the world of ex-Mormons, I place that I found composed of wonderful people, many of whom I am proud to count as my friends to this day. But the problem is that I simply don’t belong; unlike most ex-Mormons, I continue to want to believe. Even when I find it difficult, or perhaps currently impossible, I still desire belief and so leaving was never really an option.
So, in the end, I’ve found peace in accepting the ambiguities of the hope mixed with faith that I possess. Perhaps, when I read the Book of Mormon or listen to a sermon by Gordon B. Hinckley, I don’t often hear the thunderous chorus of absolute and universal truth. Instead, I sometimes hear the subtle oboe solo of a spiritual message that is true enough, at least for me, at least for now. And, that turns out to be enough for me to be getting on with.


Well if the classic liberal Mormon faith/doubt mixture is an oboe solo, I’m going to have to reconsider …
Seriously, I think the modern emphasis on infallible leaders who get revelations piped in directly from the Most High at least five times a day is a folk doctrine that got elevated to an official doctrine by the sycophants who populate Correlation. Personally, I see only two events in the entire 20th century that are legitimate candidates for Revelation with a big R: the Second Manifesto of 1905 (the one that actually ended polygamy) and the Second Declaration of 1978.
What is surprising is that up until about 1970, this was actually the view taken by most senior LDS leaders, who talked a lot about inspiration (of a general sort) but not so much about Revelation (big R). When Joseph F. Smith testified to the US Senate committe on or around 1905, he testified that he had never had a Revelation (big R). I’ll take him at his word on that one.
So having doubts about the perpicacity of revelation is not so out of harmony with classical Mormonism, just with the malignant ultraorthodoxy that happens to define the Church in this generation. But this too shall pass.
And yet Gordon Hinckley teaches: Do anything the Church asks you to.. How do you deal with that?
Sorry that the link does not work.
Here is the reference for the cite: Gordon B. Hinckley, “To the Women of the Church,” Ensign, Nov. 2003, 113
There is a difference between obedience to leaders and them necessarily being inspired in all things. I think it an other folk doctrine that the two must necessarily go hand in hand.
Why would you obey someone who is probably wrong? What about the Mountain Meadow Massacre?
One of my friends died because her stake president told her that his natural remedies would cure her cancer. What about the incest cases were bishops advised families not to turn to the authorities only to have more children abused?
Aren’t we responsible for our lifes? If leaders aren’t necessarily inspired then their advice might be less justified than that of my physician, my friend, or my accountant.
Isn’t that obedience building on sand?
Hellmut,
Suppose you face a problem, with two possible answers, and you have no way of knowing which is right. TO keep things simple, we’ll work with a problem where one asnwer is right and the other is not, you just don’t know which. o you could guess, and be right 50% of the time.
Now suppose you have a Bishop who, in your words, is “not necessarily inspired”. We’ll say that means that he is inspired 50% of the time and not the rest. If inspired, he gives you the right answer, otherwise, he’s just guessing, and so is right half the time he is guessing. Also, we’ll assume he can’t convey to you if he is or isn’t inspired on this decision.
Based on that, and ignoring lots of extra details that don’t change the basic idea, Your Bishop’s advice will be right 75% of the time, while you will be right 50% of the time. So yes, there is a perfectly good reason to follow fallible leaders, without even talking about the virtue of learning to obey. Once you have this insight in hand, the anecdotes of a Bishop or other leader making a mistake are no longer dragon-slayers. They are expected to occur, because everybody makes mistakes. That does not change the basic premise. The question then becomes, how likely are they to be right compared to how likely I am. And then you throw in whatever premium follows from learning to walk by faith. Either way, bad things can and will happen sometimes.
Frank’s made this argument many many times before, but I don’t recall this part of it being explicitly stated: “Also, we’ll assume he can’t convey to you if he is or isn’t inspired on this decision.”
Why would that be? I think this assumption has some interesting implications.
Wait, I have a question: what kind of inspiration are you expecting the Bishop to receive for you? I have had tremendous respect for every Bishop I have ever had, and I have always ceded them their responsibility to govern the ward. But to receive inspiration for my personal life? No way! Seek advice, sure, but “inspiration”? That is a recipe for disaster, and one, IMO, that the Gospel does not require of us.
Frank, I think your argument is interesting. However, I have a somewhat different point of view. How would you respond to the assertion that the purpose of our lives isn’t to be right (or even to do right), but rather to learn how to be the kind of person who can evaluate a situation and make the right decision in that context? I think that this point of view authorizes a perspective in which a wise and inspired leader (of whatever ecclesiastical rank) should be considered as an important source of advice but never obeyed against one’s best judgment — since we are in fact supposed to learn how to have judgment as part of our process of reaching our full potential.
Hellmut, after reading through the Hinckley sermon you’re quoting from, I’m not sure what he meant. It’s most probable that he was advocating total submission and blind obedience, a position I find unhelpful. However, it’s also possible that he was suggesting something a bit less radical, along the lines of accepting any calling that you’re given.
This specific quote notwithstanding, I agree that there are a variety of statements in which church leaders have demanded unconditional obedience. Not only do I resist this idea, I would suggest that it’s sometimes even impossible. In church life, as in every other domain, we sometimes run into conflicting imperatives, i.e., situations where we’ve been instructed both to act and not to act. In such circumstances, which are by no means rare, the suggestion of unconditional obedience isn’t even meaningful.
That’s a clever thought experiment, Frank. I enjoyed it.
If I had cancer, however, and I knew that the stake president is wrong one out of four times then I would definitely go to the hospital where I can talk to people who don’t need to be inspired to get it right more reliably than my priesthood leader.
The cancer example really happened, by the way.
Once we redefine inspiration in the terms of your model then reason becomes the superior decision making mechanism. I think that we should teach that rather than: Do anything the Church asks you to do.
That’s a great lead, Ed. If we don’t know whether or not we are inspired then we are probably best off not to make decisions based on inspiration.
Ronan, I agree with you. Is that what we teach people in church? Don’t we teach that priesthood leaders act on behalf of God and with His help? Doesn’t that doctrine necessarily delegitimize self-reliance?
Also, there is the matter of unsolicited advice. Should I really be concerned if my daughter dates a black guy? Are my children better off if they never see Schindler’s List? Do I have an obligation to support legislation against gays?
I could live quite comfortable with the gospel of Roasted Tomatoe. Two concerns though: Doesn’t your concept of revelation or inspiration render these categories meaningless? What’s left of revelation and inspiration after we take your analysis to its conclusion?
Second, I am concerned about real people who interprete demands of obedience literally and get hurt in the process.
Hellmut, yes we do teach that “priesthood leaders act on behalf of God and with His help,” but not to give me binding “inspiration” for my personal life (beyond that part of my personal life that involves my voluntary membership in the church, i.e., the Bishop is entitled to counsel and indeed judge me if I commit a serious sin).
I just cannot imagine a scenario where I would have asked the Bishop whom I should marry, how many kids I should have, what degree I should take, and what doctor I should see. Seek his advice, indeed. But binding inspiration for things like this? Come on. That’s my job. If some Mormons choose to be automatons, that’s their problem. But it ain’t my Mormonism.
Hellmut, I experience revelation and inspiration in my life as an extra-rational phenomenon that I find unwise to theorize or bound. Since I have this experience, and it is important to me, I certainly grant others the same privilege. However, while I am certainly accountable for my decisions with respect to other people’s claimed revelation, it’s my feeling that I won’t be condemned for disobedience when that is the course which the light that I have suggests. (Isn’t the Atonement a good thing?)
HL,
WHat you ae saying is that you think you can get better odds elsewhere. Well that is up to you and your faith. I was just showing you obedience is readily rationalizable even with fallible leaders.
RT,
Is the message from the scriptures and the prophets that the goal is to do as you stated? Can you give me some examples? Sometimes the right decision is to follow what God tells you to do through His servant, even if you do not yet know.
“For you shall alive by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.”
And “ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.”
And, from the True to the Faith book:
“Your greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church. The Lord warns that those who ignore the words of the living prophets will fall (see D&C 1:14–16). He promises great blessings to those who follow the President of the Church:
“Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith. For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory” (D&C 21:4–6).”
Also, you are trying to make a quirky new definition of “right”, but we can always safely define “right” as what God would have you do in your particular circumstance (not what God does, but what He would have you do). If the best answer is for you to make your own decision, than the inspired-by-God thing for a Bishop to do will be to tell you to make your own decision. So I don’t see that as a big problem.
Ed,
I think some Bishops can and do say whether or not they feel inspired on a given point, but I didn’t need that to make the point and it just increases the states to be evaluated so I left it out. Obviously, if a Bishop says that he feels inspired about a particular course of action, that should enter into the probability calculation of whether or not he is inspired.
RT– I was responding to 9, by the way.
Ronan– Offhand, I think you’re right that Bishops rarely give advice into such personal matters. Certainly no Bishop has ever counseled me on personal matters. And it seems likely that when they do they are less likely to be right as compared to some other matters.
But I am really just dealing with a framework. What numbers you plug into it are your business!
Frank, I don’t have time to go into a lot of detail on this, but let me say that your comments are interesting. On your scriptural quotes, I find it fascinating how we sometimes treat statements like “give heed” from the D&C as meaning “obey unquestioningly.” In fact, “give heed” means “pay attention,” something that we should surely do when we receive wise advice.
“Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith. For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory” (D&C 21:4–6).”
I would feel a lot more confident about that if Joseph Smith was not claiming that God demands that we pay attention to Joseph Smith.
Roasted Tomatoes, the problem arises when somebody claims authority over someone else based on authority. What is the proper response?
Ronan, I would like to agree with you. The Elders do emphasize obedience in absolute terms. In light of those teachings, LDS leaders are responsible when people abandon common sense in favor of obedience.
Here is a little graph that documents the frequency of “free agency” and “obedience” in General Conference talks over time.
. . . based on inspiration.
My apologies!
Hellmut, you talk about this stuff like it’s actually a real issue for people like RT. Obviously, it’s not! The ability to hear the oboe through the construction noise is a gift. Sure, the construction noise is a huge distraction. But that doesn’t mean the oboe’s not there.
I understand that, Ann. Thanks for bringing it up though.
I find the gospel of Roasted Tomatoes attractive. I would like to find out what Roasted Tomatoes would say to a convert he instructs in gospel essentials class, for example.
Personally, I need to figure out how to relate the authority-obedience-divine connection stuff to my kids. More generally, our very presence at church might be interpreted as support for authoritarian theology.
RT: The scripture says “his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth,” which seems to imply a strong reading of “give heed.”
On the other hand, as Hellmut points out, this scripture was referring to Joseph Smith, and it doesn’t say it aplies to anyone else, let alone to your Bishop. (It also doesn’t say it applies to whoever is president of the church; in fact, the office of president hadn’t even been created at that time.)
Ed, again, the command is to “receive” the word, not to unthinkingly obey. Asking “why” in response to even direct divine commands is an act that has been both praised and condemned in the texts which comprise our canon, so there’s certainly room for alternative perspectives.
I’ll always receive and give heed to the perspective of Joseph Smith on any issue. Same to the perspective of Gordon B. Hinckley. But if their points of view contradict what I feel within me to be right, then unless I am told otherwise by God (which is an open possibility), I’m going to follow the understanding that I have. If I’m going to bear the responsibility for my choices anyway, I’d at least like to be able to explain why I made them…
Hellmut, much though I appreciate the implied compliment, I don’t know if there’s such a thing as the gospel of RoastedTomatoes… I’m just trying to be a good Mormon Christian. In a gospel essentials class, I would try to teach the atonement of Jesus Christ, and our duty to each other. (Aren’t those the essentials of the gospel?) I’ve become quite skilled, if I may say so myself, at shoehorning these two themes into diverse lesson topics…
I was surprised when I found the mormon blogosphere that there are so many people that echo my beliefs and doubts. Most of my issues with the church are the same things that active members here have problems with.
Is the main difference between between people who have gone through a trial and who stay with the church vs. the people who go another way are their desires to believe?
Is this desire caused by personality? Faith? Spiritual experiences? Loyalty?
Bucky, that’s a great question. I don’t know that I have an answer. Can anybody help me out?
RT,
If I heard your testimony in the Dehlin interview correctly, you have received several revelations in your time in the church. I take it that is why you stay. Is that not true?
Geoff, maybe. This depends on whether one accepts Jeffrey G.’s inspiration/revelation distinction. After all, I’ve never had a vision. But, yes, I have received what I take to be a divine message of one kind or another on various occasions. And I stay in large part because I feel that it’s right for me to do so, indeed that it’s God’s will for me to do so.
Dave wrote Personally, I see only two events in the entire 20th century that are legitimate candidates for Revelation with a big R: the Second Manifesto of 1905 (the one that actually ended polygamy) and the Second Declaration of 1978.
What about D&C 138? Joseph F. Smith wrote that
This sounds like pretty spectacular revelation to me–on BoM level at least, comparable even to Lehi’s vision of the Tree of Life, although D&C 138 appears to have been a descriptive vision rather than a metaphorical one, as was Lehi’s dream.
Although I see why you would want to dismiss counsel of our leaders during General Conference as “not Revelation,” I think you might be painting too broadly in limiting what could actually count as Revelation to 1905 and 1978. To be fair, you need to count at least 1918 as such an instance. (It might be unfair to point this out but the only two instances that you listed as constituting real Revelation were instances of a political liberalization of Church policy; that is, instances where Church policy was changed to conform to “liberalizing” trends and beliefs in the broader society. I assume you wouldn’t consider the 1995 Proclamation an instance of real Revelation. Is that because its politics are wrong? Does Revelation only count as Revelation for you if it conforms to certain policy preferences and not others? Although these questions sound accusatory, they are sincere, and I do not discount your categorization choices as invalid per se, but I disagree with them on a spiritual level.)
RT: because you do not believe in BoM historicity (gleaned from other things you have written and not from this post), I will not cite the teachings of any BoM prophet (because what use would it be to cite to a fictional prophet–I might as well cite to Gandalf, as Ned loves to point out), but, assuming you believe Isaiah and Jeremiah were real and lived (there is no real basis for me to make this assumption, I just am), how would you have treated their prophetic utterances had you been contemporary? You wrote
Jeremiah rather than Isaiah is perhaps a better correlation to current prophetic guidance in the form of Church leadership, focused as they are on personal righteousness in a world that is becoming more wicked. Jeremiah forecast the doom of Jerusalem based on the iniquity of its inhabitants. Those inhabitants did not think they were wicked and rejected his message. In other words, Jeremiah’s calls to repentance and condemnations “contradict[ed] what [they] fe[lt] within [them] to be right,” and therefore “[they] . . . follow[ed] the understanding that [they] ha[d]” rather than the words of God’s prophet.
Is this really the right philosophy–i.e. when we do not agree (philosophically or politically) with a statement of the prophet, we will not follow it, elevating instead our own conclusions and opinions above those statements? I see and understand the attraction of the latter position, but it also seems inimical to our submission to God’s will. It seems that it is emerging as a major theme, however, around the bloggernacle: the Church’s claims to revelatory leadership are just fine unless and until they actually conflict with something in my worldview, in which case the latter has priority over the former. How can God lead his people through his prophets if that is the case?
The system breaks down and noone heeds the prophet’s counsel when it runs contrary to contemporary wisdom and understanding. Thus, it makes Jeremiah’s mission an impossible one, which it was, in retrospect. Hopefully, we have learned the lesson of Jerusalem’s desolation and are willing to follow the prophet’s counsel even when it pricks us as evildoers and flies in the face of what is accepted behavior in society. If the prophet has a calling to speak for God, then this is a necessary attitude of believers. If he doesn’t speak for God, then this is a waste of time and energy and there are much more convenient and pleasing ways to glean ethical insights and life wisdom than through the BoM or the leadership of the Church.
John, please feel free to quote the Book of Mormon. It’s a central part of my personal canon, just as it is of the church’s more generally.
I don’t feel that your discussion really takes full account of what I mean when I say that I’ll listen to guidance from leaders. I do mean that I’ll actually listen and take such guidance seriously. I just won’t go against my conscience.
John…can you point out where Jeremiah urged his listeners to act against what they felt to be right?
RT, what if God’s will is against your conscience, like when Nephi was commanded to kill Laban or Abraham to sacrifice Isaac or BY to practice polygamy, etc.?
Would you follow the prophet who calls you to repentance for things that you don’t personally think you need to repent of? That is the problem for the people to whom Jeremiah was preaching.
Ed: I don’t follow you. We can assume that the people who did not listen to Jeremiah did so because they felt he was asking them to act agaisnt what they felt to be right, or at least, they didn’t feel that they were doing anything wrong, that needed repenting and following the prophet’s counsel.
RT, I am comfortable quoting the BoM in discussion with you for citations of doctrine, but it seems silly for me to ask you what you would do if you were in the audience to which Samuel the Lamanite was preaching if you don’t believe he ever really existed. The question makes more sense if posed with the shared assumption of the existence and reality of the prophet discussed.
“I just won’t go against my conscience.”
Operationally, I don’t know what this means. Furthermore, your conscience is some mix of worldly garbage, the natural man, and God’s will. What reason is there to privilege that collection absolutely? I can see that there might be cases where you choose to not do what a leader asks you to. But this absolutism is odd. If I knew for a fact that my conscience was not God’s will, it could only be right to ignore my conscience and do what God wants. My imperfect “conscience” does not define what is right, God does.
John F., not answering for RT, but only for myself: if God Himself were to appear to me and say, “Kill this man, he’s going to cause an enormous amount of harm, and you and only you can prevent it by killing him,” I would not. I would go to an emergency room and ask to be admitted to a psych unit.
Stuff like that is how the Lafferty’s became notorious. Maybe they REALLY BELIEVED God told them to kill somebody. Heck, maybe God REALLY DID tell them. But do any of us really believe that God told the Lafferty’s to do anything?
I’m much more willing to accept what I’m told God wants if it doesn’t involve things like taking someone’s life or marrying another woman’s husband. Perhaps that is yet another thing that makes me Not Celestial Material.
I think obedience is less likely to be found at the extremes than in the details. I’m sure you’ve heard this old saw:
“I’d do anything the Lord asked me to. I’d even kill if He asked me to.”
“Would you do your home teaching if He asked you to?”
(John - no aspersions being cast here AT ALL. I just think sometimes people see obedience to the big, terrible things being somehow more honorable than disobedience of the small things.)
John F. #33, that made me LOL, and is VERY practical of you!
Well Ann, you have pricked me where it hurts. I am one who would be willing to do some grand thing if the Lord commanded me, but I have failed to finish the BoM this year as challenged by the prophet. I have been reflecting on that these last few days. It has taught me a lot about myself–a hard lesson to learn. I have not been able to be faithful in a small, mundane thing. Why should I think that I would be God’s instrument in some great thing, such as obtaining the precious record from Laban, as Nephi was commanded to do at all costs.
John, if I’m called to repent for something that I don’t think is wrong, I’ll take that seriously. I’ll think it through, reread any scriptural stuff that might be helpful, pray about it, and so forth. If I need to repent, I have faith that this process will help me figure that out. If, at the end of a sincere version of this, I still didn’t feel that there was a problem, then I’ll hope God will accept my sincere effort and I’ll move on.
With respect to the conscience issue, I actually like the Nephi story not as a justification for holy murder (which I find fundamentally problematic) but rather as an example of the kind of evidence we should be willing to demand before we redefine what our consciences permit. Nephi didn’t just instantly, unquestioningly obey. He asked and pushed back, receiving three separate divine messages before he allowed himself to do something that initially seemed wrong. Furthermore, he asked God to convince him first — and God did, since Nephi ends up being able to offer rational arguments for his decision.
Nephi refused to go against his conscience until God had changed his conscience for him. For me, this is a useful account and example.
By the way, John, regardless of the specifics of Mesoamerican archaeology, it’s basically unproblematic for you to use the Book of Mormon narrative in discussions with me. Since I take the text as a whole to be scripture, I’m just as willing to take seriously the narrative as the sermons.
The only thing that I could find is Michael Shermer’s study “How We Believe.” The only factor he seems to confirm for people changing religions is openness to new experiences.
Bob McCue did a study, which is included in his paper on smart people and Mormonism where he analyzes personality traits of people posting on Recovery from Mormonism. The results are towards the end of the paper. I don’t want to summarize them because I am not quite sure if I get Bob’s point.
John F: “We can assume that the people who did not listen to Jeremiah did so because they felt he was asking them to act agaisnt what they felt to be right”
I don’t see any reason to assume that. The most effective way to call people to repentance is to make them feel guilty about things they already know to be wrong. Many of the examples I can think of from the scriptures even state explicitly that the hearers are aware of their sinful state. It’s much harder (impossible?) to find scriptural examples where the prophet says “I know you sincerely believe you are right, but you should do what I say instead because I’m a prophet and you’re not.”
Frank makes a good point–it’s not clear that you should always just follow your gut, or whatever you mean by “conscience.” Instead you have to take everything you know and feel and weight it somehow to determine as best you can what you believe is right. The reason we’re having a debate is that some people (not necessarily Frank) think that counsel from church leaders (or the church president anyway) should always be given a weight of “1″.
However difficult it might be to operationalize conscience, these problems are nothing compared operationalizing God’s will.
How can anyone know what God wants? At least the worldly “garbage” has to be justified with reasons.
HL,
I don’t know what God’s will is, but I know what the _concept_ of God’s will is. I know that His ways are not my ways, so I expect that my personal beliefs are not going to be an exceptional judge of what He wants. Obviously, though, without a belief in the specific authority of someone to speak for Him at least some of the time, none of that really matters.
On the other hand, I am not sure I understand what the _concept_ of a consciense is, shy of “whatever I happen to think is right.” And if that is the definition, well yes, my belief in prophets and personal revelation entails a belief that it is possible to know God’s will sufficient to act beyond whatever I happen to think is right based on my upbringing and the traditions of my fathers. Even if it is not a sure knowledge of God’s will.
RT,
Suppose I thought it was morally wrong to pay taxes to the government (I don’t think that, by the way). The prophet, and the Q of the 12 both inform me, unanimously, that I am in error and that that is not the will of God. I pray about it and get no revelation. I still feel it is morally wrong. We could call this feeling my conscience if we wish. But I decide to test the word as Alma suggests by trying it. I decide, in other words, that if I “do his will” I shall “know of the doctrine” (John 7:17). So I pay taxes anyway and keep praying. I don’t, at this point, _know_ who is right, me or them, but my faith leads me to guess that they are probably right and my libertarian buddies, despite all their pretty words and Tom Payne rhetoric, and even though they have convinced my “conscience”, are probably wrong.
Are you saying that you would do differently, or the same? If differently, how? What am I missing from these scriptures or what other scriptures or prophets inform me that I should behave differently? If the same, it is not clear to me that, for all the talk, there is much difference between our views on obedience.
Frank, I think it’s important to remember that the scripture you’re quoting is about God’s will, not anyone else’s will. And I think that the Nephi example from above really licences us to ask God under these kinds of circumstances.
RT, the whole point of the exercise is trying to weigh how we can make a best guess of God’s will and how the prophets fit into that for you. I take it that if God were to appear and directly make His will known then we could all agree readily on what would be right to do.
My example had us asking God as you suggest, but getting no answer. Should one get an answer, then obviously one would follow it to the degree that one had confidence it was from God. But the interesting question arises when no answer is forthcoming.
I agree with you that conscience in the sense of superego is limited and may be morally misleading. The deliberate and reflective application of the Golden Rule makes better use of the freedom of conscience.
If discovering God’s will were really a matter of personal revelation and personal revelation would tell us that the president of the LDS Church is God’s prophet then there should be the same rate of Mormons in Iran as in Wyoming.
Unless one subscribes to the belief that people in Wyoming are inherently superior to those living in Iran, an implication that would not reflect well on Mormon theology.
That’s where the rubber hits the road. Real people get hurt when we follow foolish and uncharitable advice.
Can anyone explain to me, please, what is the difference between Nephi slaying Laban and the crusaders who cried Deus lo volt, “It is the will of God!” when they massacred the population of Jerusalem?
Hellmut, for believers, the difference is that God told Nephi to do it and God didn’t tell the crusaders to slaughter people for politics and glory. Your answer is, of course, that the crusaders thought that God had also told them, and obviously he didn’t, so obviously he didn’t tell Nephi either, because, in your judgment, God doesn’t tell someone to kill another person. The conversation simply has to end there, because you will never be convinced by those who believe that God as the lawmaker can command Nephi to kill Laban, and believers will never be convinced that God is constrained by what makes you squemish or by what outrages you morally.
Frank, your hypothetical requires that we be given an instruction by church leaders which and which we are unable to obtain any kind of direct personal sense of divine confirmation of those instructions. I’m going to invoke Moroni 10:5, which of course states that, “by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.”
In your scenario, the Moroni 10:5 promise doesn’t happen. That’s fine; sometimes things don’t work out in the real world. But it seems to me that, in the special circumstance that we get advice which seems morally wrong to us and we can’t get any divine sense about it, we’re justified in following our own best judgment.
Hellmut, as I noted above in comment 38, I find holy murder a problematic idea under basically any circumstances. The reading that I’m doing of the Nephi-Laban story is thus about whether it’s okay to demand that God explain seemingly unreasonable demands to us before we act, rather than being about whether we should kill people.
RT,
A modern application of the Nephi/Laban thing might hypothetically be applied to four airplanes that were hijacked on September 11, 2001.
Let’s assume (reasonably, I think) that the lack of a fifth hijacker on the plane that went down in Pennsylvania allowed the passengers to thwart the ultimate designs of the hijackers at the expense of their own lives. IE, five hijackers with boxcutters can take over a plane, with four you can’t, if the passengers fight back.
Assume there is an expert in martial arts (able to kill someone with his bare hands, type) sitting directly behind the aft-most hijacker prior to the hijackers taking action.
Suppose, like Nephi, the Spirit tells the martial arts guy to kill the man sitting in the seat in front of him, something he could do within seconds by snapping his neck.
That would appear to be outrageous, killing someone before they obviously did anything to harm anyone. But now in hindsight, we see it clearly.
The only thing new about the September 11 hijackings was using the planes as missiles. There was nothing new about a group of men taking over an airplane.
Yet now, the utter horror of the events should make clear to everyone something that was already known to sky marshals, counter-terrorists, and the military: that there are times when killing one man, or a few, will save hundreds or thousands of innocent lives.
I’m of the belief that because God is omnipotent, anything he doesn’t cause to happen, he allows to happen.
I believe God allowed the tragedy of September 11, 2001 to happen. But I’m also of the opinion, that had a man capable of killing with his hands, and capable of obeying the Spirit, been sitting behind a hijacker, that God is capable of instructing that man to kill in order to accomplish God’s design. Sometimes God interferes, and sometimes he allows bad things to happen.
Nephi said he was constrained of the Spirit to kill Laban. It was not a mere whisper or a still small voice as the word “constrain” indicates clarity and emphasis.
I’ve never been prompted to do things as drastic as hurt someone. However, plenty of times I’ve been prompted to do things that would be considered foolish or unwise. Sometimes I’ve obeyed, and sometimes I’ve ignored those promptings. Regardless of my obedience or disobedience, events usually developed which illustrated that the prompting was from the right source.
I’ve left out some of the more obvious communications from the Spirit in my blog entries. But maybe 10% of the book placements have resulted from being told by the Spirit where to go and who to contact. One story from 2004 started out with an impression so light that it seemed like my own idea, and I couldn’t tell if it was a prompting or my own imagination. But by exercising faith, and acting upon the mere idea, the events of that day progressed to a point where I was “constrained” to talk to a certain person. Then, having completed my “assignments” and driving home, I was given plain instructions on where to go on the next trip. And that next trip also resulted in mind-blowing events.
What I learned that day is that you grow
into personal revelation step by step, like Joseph Smith taught. And that the “confirmations” or outpourings of miraculous testimony come only after you exercise faith in the mere whispers. If I hadn’t exercised faith that day, and driven to a nearby city based on a mere idea, I probably never would have received the “constraining” or the subsequent obvious directions, which in turn, led to finding even more people who were downright eager to receive pairs of the Book of Mormon in their native language and English.
I believe that when Nephi was led by the Spirit, 1 Nephi 4:6, to get the plates by himself that night, it was not the first time he had heard the Spirit and followed such directions. The voice of the Spirit was not a “new” voice for Nephi. He recognized it.
I’ve sometimes thought that if I were to be told to kill someone, I’d write it off as Satan, thinking “God would never tell me that.” But Nephi, like Abraham, did not judge the source of that voice by what it was telling him, he recognized the voice.
I like John F’s comment about how God is not limited by what we consider squeamish, outlandish, or unwise. What makes sense according to God’s will is not necessarily what makes sense according to man’s reasoning.
I argue my position in terms of reasons, John, not emotions. Though moral outrage can be a good thing, one does not need to rely on it to determine the difference between right and wrong. Reason can take us a long way, especially in this case.
Supposedly, God explained to Nephi that Laban needed to be killed for a reason. The stated reason is to capture the plates, which contain the word of God. The benefits of the word of God to the descendants of Lehi outweighs the value of the life of Laban.
Lets stipulate that for the sake of argument.
Nephi encounters Laban who is so drunk that Nephi cannot only disarm his opponent but also conduct an extended debate with God.
If the killing were about obtaining the plates then Nephi could have bound his drunken opponent. Due to alcohol consumption, Laban’s ability to resist was diminished. According to the story Nephi was in possession of these resources: one set of extra cloths and a sword. Therefore he could have cut bonds and tied and muzzled Laban.
Killing Laban amounts unnecessary and hence disproportionate violence, even if one were to concede that the possession of the plates is more important than Laban’s life.
Joseph Smith’s God is one who arrives at non-sequitur conclusions in matters of life and death.
Unlike inspiration, reason is subject to review and therefor the more humble approach to decision making. The humility of reason enables responsibility while inspiration must rely on claims of authority.
It seems to me, John, that your hypothesis about emotions is an issue for those who claim inspiration but cannot justify their choices with reasons. For they cannot demonstrate that they are motivated by anything but their own desires.
In Alma 32, Mormon doctrine locates the origin of the testimony in a person’s wish. In light of that understanding, it is alarming that people might be willing to take somebody else’s life based on an inspiration, especially if it is not even their own inspiration but that of a third person.
I am constantly amazed how people can put together the actions of a leader, as the representations of the founding ideals of a group.
My father belonged to the Kiwanis. Their President embezzled a bunch of money while my father was the Secretary of the club, so that means the Kiwanis are wrong, correct? That means the whole premise of the Kiwanis is built on a false foundation, correct? Another Kiwanis was rude to my father, gave him bad advice, tried to live my father’s life for him, and that makes the entire organization a fallacy, correct? I mean I want to leave the Kiwanis, and blame these people. I want to leave believing the Kiwanis is a corrupt organization with weak leaders that make mistakes. I want the right to have my feelings hurt and to blame others for how I feel. I want to take a stand against all Kiwanis everywhere, declaring unto them the fallacy of their beliefs. If the founding members of the Kiwanis made any mistakes in their lives (I’m still investigating them), it will prove that the Kiwanis was founded on false people, liars, and the whole Kiwanis should be abandoned. Those people have to be perfect for the organization to a good one, correct?
I mean, I do get to play the Right/Wrong game, correct?
I do get to play the Judge, Jury and Executioner game, correct?
I have the right to expect people to live a life that is perfect, correct?
I mean, someone other than Jesus Christ can be perfect, correct?
I should not join the PTA, because there are very controlling mothers out there that want to take a simple thing like the PTA, and push their own agendas, so that makes the PTA a false organization, correct? Please don’t ask me to not judge an organization because the actions of a leader. I want the right to be ‘right’, and to play judge, jury and executioner. Isn’t there someone out there who also had a bad experience with a PTA member that will support me in my feeling of betrayal, someone who can help me put a stop to this wicked organization?
When I was a Boy Scout, I was molested by a leader’s friend who came on our campout. Because that happened, the Boy Scouts must be demolished. The Boy Scouts are responsible for the actions of this man. They could have taken steps to prevent it, but they didn’t, so they are bad, sick and wrong. They need to be stopped. I know I’m not the only other person that was molested in the Boy Scouts, so we need to band together and stop this wicked organization. It’s only a brothel for child molesting, correct? You’re with me, correct? You’ll help me stop these evil people, correct?
When are we going to learn the lesson that there is only one perfect person, Jesus Christ? Everyone one of us makes mistakes. Everyone one of us has committed many sins. Everyone one of us has made several mistakes in our lives. Are you OK for us to stick an investigator in your past, and to bring to light, every time you lied? Every time you weren’t 100% honest? Every time you had immoral thoughts? Every time you broke the law? Every time you didn’t honor your Father and Mother? Every time you coveted? Every time you did things in your personal lives that you’d just want to die if the world found-out about those things?
When are we going to learn the life-lesson, that no-one other than Christ was perfect, and that it is not our place to judge others?
I’m a father of 5, and I’m a great dad, one of the best in the world. I love my children with all of my soul. But I’ve made mistakes in my life as being a Father. Let me ask you, Do you judge me for who I am today, the father I am today, because of my life-lessons, or do you judge me by every mistake I made as a father?
Do you want us to judge you by all the mistakes you’ve made in your life, or do you want us to judge you for the person you’ve become because of your life-lessons?
What is this overwhelming desire to find all mistakes people make in their lives? Does it matter whether we find 1 mistake or 5000? What does that prove? They are human? They are fallible? We are all fallible, every one of us, except for Jesus Christ. So what is our point to show that people are human, full or frailties, and they make mistakes, sometime huge ones?
Why do we love playing the drama game? Why must all the drama that life brings, change our belief system? Why do we surrender to the drama in people’s lives? How dare we set ourselves up as judges over other people’s life-lessons?
When I was 12, I was getting chased by a bully from school and there was a bike unlocked at school, so I took it to get away from the bully. So, technically I stole it. So for how many generations am I going to be looked at as a piece of crap because I did that? How far into the future will people tell me I’m a bad person because I did that? At what point will someone take a stand and say “Wow, that is his lesson to learn”, and not hold me in judgment? When will someone say “he is a good husband and a good father and a good person?” Why is it we want to remember me for my stealing a bike when I was 12 for 200 years? I founded all my children. I founded all my grandchildren. In 200 years, I’ll have 300-1000 descendents. Will they remember me for how kind and loving I was, what a giving man I was, or are they going to say “He can’t be a good person, he stole a bike when he was 12”.
At what point are we going to truly own our power, and to stop giving it away? At what point are we going to say, I am here on earth to learn all of my life-lessons. My lessons aren’t someone else’s, their life-lessons aren’t mine. I chose to not play the right/wrong game, the judge, jury & executioner game with anyone else, and I pray they will not do the same as well.
I get to see my lessons, and move through them. I get to learn from my lessons so they’ll stop repeating themselves in my life until I learn them. I pray people will forgive me for my mistakes. I pray people won’t judge me when I’m slow to learn a specific life-lesson, and life has to beat me in the head many times until I get that lesson. I promise dear lord to not judge others as well. I forgive others for their frailties, and I pray God will forgive me of mine.
SpeakTheTruth
Hello everyone…I’m back from 10 days in the land of OZ, er, SLC. It’s still there, in case you were wondering.
I’m enjoying your discussion and hope you don’t mind my interjecting:
I was taught, and understood, that God’s motive in commanding Nephi to kill Laban was based in omniscience…that He clearly knew that killing Laban was the _only_ and best way to do it under the circumstances. The reasoning approach with Nephi was for Nephi’s benefit, so that he could make a choice based on his faith in God’s omniscience.
That said, I no longer believe what I was taught.
Bookslinger’s use of the 9-11 scenario (are we ever going to get over this?) is classic strawman construction and irrelevant to the Nephi-Laban tale. Unlike Bookslinger’s martial artist, Nephi could not have known with the same certainty that death would be imminent, rather he was forced to rely on the constraining influence of the spirit. Nephi’s choice was entirely bound by his faith in the righteousness of that spirit…and unlike the martial artist who is faced by an act of terror, Nephi’s action could only be defended by an appeal to the truth of his faith…something that could never be verified or defended in a court of law.
No matter what you believe about his testimony, Nephi was a cold-blooded murderer in the eyes of the world and his story about being commanded of god only makes him appear all the more psychotic.
The issue here is that we think it’s okay (more than okay) to do things based upon our “true” faith, while we call similar actions by those who don’t share our faith acts of terror and evil.
This thread really brings out the full force and depraved degree of our religous bigotry.
Y’all scare the hell out of me.
Speak the Truth, I can assure that on the day the PTA will claim to be the only true Church of God and demand that people do anything what the PTA president tells them to do, on that day, I will apply the same arguments to the PTA.
Until then, the PTA and the Boy Scouts are essentially different from the LDS Church. Like the Church, they are operated by imperfect human beings. Unlike the LDS Church, they do not demand unqualified obedience.
That’s a big difference.
HL, my point is that you proceed as if your personal faculty of reason were the ultimate and omnipotent calculator of human morality and right and wrong. Your basic assumption is certainly that your personal faculty of reason is more correct in its moral determinations than “Joseph Smith’s God.” And this is based on your judgments about Nephi killing Laban and Joseph Smith’s polygamy, and maybe a bad-apple bishop somewhere down the line who wasn’t polite.
In a godless world, however, you are absolutely right. We must follow the categorical imperative with no exceptions. But God does exist and he can command his followers. RT has a good point that if we are commanded to do something that seems to violate the categorical imperative that our reason tells us we should generally follow without exception, then we are justified in seeking assurance that an exception is indeed in order in this case. And you also have a good unstated point: why would Nephi be justified in killing Laban but the crusaders weren’t or the 9/11 hijackers weren’t, when the latter might claim that God commanded them to commit their crimes? This comes down to truth claims. You have implied that the mere making of truth claims “does not speak well for our religion” because if someone in Wyoming can make a truth claim that contradicts a truth claim of someone in Medina, then, well, that just isn’t good. I don’t think that this notion should be accepted uncritically.
No, John. That is not my basic assumption. I will be compelled to change my position in the face of a better reasoned argument.
It is not about anything “me.” It’s about reasons.
Reasons that you find persuasive. The question is whether God feels constrained by Kant’s categorical imperative, as smart as Kant was.
That’s a big step forward, John. Many of the ideas that are most persuasive are not my own.
Humans will learn as long as they have an open mind. When reason is not stifled, the quality of arguments improves over time.
People who claim inspiration, on the other hand, don’t need to listen to anyone. We don’t know whether their inspiration is not just a reflection of their emotions. They don’t know either.
Inspiration is much more vulnerable to egocentrism than reason.
Watt,
So what you are saying is that anyone who murders is what? Can’t be a Prophet? Can’t be of God? Is simply going to hell? Guilty of Murder and what?
Please explain.
SpeakTheTruth
Hellmut: “Therefore he could have cut bonds and tied and muzzled Laban. [P] Killing Laban amounts unnecessary and hence disproportionate violence, even if one were to concede that the possession of the plates is more important than Laban’s life.”
Ok, let’s reason. How do you know God didn’t have other reasons, that Nephi didn’t mention, or that God didn’t mention to Nephi?
By reasoning, the God of 1st Nephi sounds much like the God of the Old Testament who ordered the slaughter of many, and struck down many with his own hand without the need for human actors.
Given that the God of the Old Testament is a God of infinite justice, the reasonable and logical inference is that Laban deserved to die, if not for the plates issue, then for other unstated reasons.
HL,
You said, “I can assure that on the day the PTA will claim to be the only true Church of God and demand that people do anything what the PTA president tells them to do, on that day, I will apply the same arguments to the PTA.”
So your asking me not to judge the ‘people’ of the PTA, but are saying it’s OK to judge the ‘people’ of any religion that claims to be “The only true church”, that’s what you are saying, right?
I’m looking to be clear here on when/where you’ve decided when you want to turn your eyes away and not judge people, and when you’ve decided you have the right to judge.
Please teach me your judgment filters, so I can be on the same page.
Is it just religions that we get to judge? Can we judge politics? Presidents? Friends? Family?
Is it OK to judge others who aren’t friends and family, or are we allowed to judge them too?
You are thinking I’m striving to be rude, but I am not. I am striving to understand when/where you judgment filters jump in.
You also said,
The PTA and the Boy Scouts are essentially different from the LDS Church. Like the Church, they are operated by imperfect human beings. Unlike the LDS Church, they do not demand unqualified obedience.
As far as I know, the only perfect being is Jesus Christ. Is their someone else that is perfect, or claims someone is perfect? You must know of something I don’t know of. I’ve heard many leaders of the LDS church talk about their mistakes, their frailties, their life-lessons. I haven’t heard of anyone claiming themselves or anyone else in the LDS church to be ‘perfect’.
I also have never read anywhere the LDS faith ‘demands unqualified obedience’. This is a new phrase to me. I haven’t heard that one ever spoken in the LDS things I’ve read. Can you please show me where it says that?
Thanks so much.
SpeakTheTruth
Please enlighten me.
Watt (or is it Chris?): “Y’all scare the hell out of me.”
It’s so easy to spot the RfM-ers.
I’m saying that anyone who commits murder is a murderer, yes…but if it is to be justified as a commandment of God, then this puts the murderer’s faith in god on trial which would then require extraordinary evidence to make the case for innocence…evidence that has yet to be presented in a court of law.
I would not presume to say that it can’t be of God or that Nephi could not, subsequent to commiting murder, be ordained a prophet…just that one who commits murder and claims that God commanded it had beter be prepared to do one of the following:
1. Escape and evade the law…perhaps by heading out of town?
2. Pay the legal consequence of jail or execution or what ever the law requires
3. Prove that God commanded it in a way that the law can accept as valid and reasonable
HL wrote Inspiration is much more vulnerable to egocentrism than reason.
That neither means nor implies that God does not work through revelation to his prophets, even to the extent of commanding Nephi directly to kill Laban.
Bookslinger,
So it’s from strawman to ad hominem? Amazing.
HL, this is fundamentally about you. Whether you are willing to be persuaded about one thing or another based on whether it passes tests you impose on it with your own reason. God is bigger than your personal reason, HL. This is, of course, foolishness to an unbeliever. I understand that.
Matt,
Thanks for your explanation.
May I ask, what about the times in the Bible where God killed or others killed and God didn’t make them be accountable?
Do you believe the Old Testament are just “stories”?
Do you not believe in the Old Testament?
How do you justify it being OK in your God killing people?
I can provide evidence but I beleive you know the stories I’m talking about.
SpeakTheTruth
Friends, a quick note: I’m enjoying the vigorous discussion that’s going on, but I’m worried about a few signs that we’re on the verge of breaking down from healthy debate into disruptive contention. Let’s please dial down the personal intensity a notch or two, if possible! Thanks, and once again, thanks to all of you for the lively and worthwhile discussion.
Matt,
Another thought. If we use your same rules as stated above, Paul shouldn’t/can’t be an Apostle because he helped in the stoning of Stephen.
So is Paul not an Apostle and you only believe in the first 5 books of the New Testament?
Did Paul get forgiven somewheresomehow we don’t know about?
Explain your belief system to me if we use the same judgment on Paul?
How dare God to say Paul is a chosen vessel for me, when he’d assisted in commiting murder?
Thanks.
SpeakTheTruth
I do not question that these stories exist and I do not know to what extent they are true…I also do not know the mind of god. Do you?
All I’m saying is that if one makes a claim to know the mind of god and his innocence is on the line, he better be prepared to present proof.
WM, you have touched on a point that is selbstverständlich, only it seems many are inexplicably blind to it. Nephi was aware that he had committed murder. He knew he was not morally culpable because God commanded him to do it. But he knew that he was guilty under the law. That is why, when he records what happened later on, he is careful to set up the crime as a manslaughter under Jewish law (e.g. he went in not knowing beforehand what he would do, etc.) for which the perpetrator has the possibility of fleeing to a city of refuge–the possibility of self-exile basically–to avoid the capital consequences of the act at the hands of the kin of the slain. He then does indeed flee and never returns (even though had he fled to a city of refuge, he would be able to look forward to an eventual amnesty granted by the high priest).
Anyway, the point of this is, it is right that we live by a law, such as the categorical imperative (which, contrary to what HL seems to think, is only one of many ways to order society based on objective notions of right and wrong), because not everyone believes in God or the same God (as is amply shown by this thread alone). Thus, we as a society cannot allow the 9/11 hijackers to commit mass-murder on the excuse that they believe God commanded it. They are subject to the law without a faith-based exception. Their belief that God commanded it goes to their eternal moral culpability, completely independent of how society has dealt with them based on the ordering needs of a temporal and hopelessly fragmented (read, pluralistic) social order. My personal belief is that God will punish them severely for their atrocities and that he did not command them to commit mass murder that day. However, hundreds of millions of Muslims either outright believe deep-down that those hijackers were brave and following God’s commands or are fence-sitters partially admiring them for being courageous enough to be true Muslims and kill the infidels as the Koran prescribes. Either I and those who like me believe that God did not command them to do it or those Muslims who believe it was commanded are right. Not both of us. Likewise, either I or HL are right that God commanded Nephi to kill Laban for God’s own purposes, speicifically so that an entire nation could have the genealogy and scriptures of the Jews in a far-away land so that, eventually, the true Gospel could be restored after it had been corrupted in its original setting. Not both of us. That won’t be settled until the hereafter. As for now, there is an impass that simply cannot be overcome when one party claims that finite human reason can determine everything, even the commanding of God as to what he can and cannot do morally, and the other claims that God is bigger than human reason and even human conscience.
Again, I don’t presume to know the mind of God. The possibility that Paul was a murderer and subsequently an apostle by the mind and will of god remains valid…I just don’t know it to be a fact. Do you?
john f:
Thanks for the thoughtful and enlightening (to me) reply.
I’m not sure that Hellmut claims to have absolute power by reason alone. I’d probably say it’s more along the lines that reason is powerful and cannot be denyed it’s place in human learning. Also that when two groups (say Mormons and Muslims) make claims to truth, there must be something more required of both in the way of evidence.
In light of the fact that God’s instructions make no sense, the inference is that Nephi didn’t speak to God.
Speak the Truth,
You are jumping to conclusions.
I did not criticize LDS leaders for being imperfect. My criticism is that they are demanding an unreasonable degree of obedience even though they are imperfect.
Matt,
No, I do not know the mind of God, and why he picked so many important people to him that were murderers.
One of my life-lessons was to learn it isn’t my place to judge, meaning God, any of his messengers of any timeframe, or my fellow men.
So I don’t have a criteria as you stated above, to Judge Moses for murdering, God who slew Judah’s 2 sons, Simeon & Levi (2 of the 12 Tribes of the House of Israel) who killed an entire family.
So my point is, either we get to use your same critieria to Judge these other murderers, or we get to choose not to Judge. It is hypocritical to say “I want to Judge Nephi, but I’m not willing to Judge the other Murderers that are Gods chosen people as well.
So we can choose to go through our scriptures and cut out the verses that claim these people murdered and pretend the didn’t happen, or we get to Judge all of them with the same Judgment (God is included in this murderer list), or we get to say, “I don’t have a criteria, because I choose to not Judge the people God deals with.
Am I missing something?
Thoughts???
SpeakTheTruth
Who cares if Watt posts on RfM or on Nauvoo? What matters is whether what he or she says makes sense.
Saul could be an Apostle because he recognized that he had made a mistake. At the time of Stephen’s stoning Saul erroneously thought that the killing reflected the will of God. That should be a lesson to the rest of us.
John, you are attributing too much. I never said that reason can determine everything. I also never said that the categorical imperative is the only way to live a moral life.
I don’t remember having mentioned that phrase in the blogosphere at all. The term was the Golden Rule as in the Sermon of the Mount. That’s inspiration that actually makes sense.
Rather, I said that I am concerned about people who interfere with the rights of others in the name of God.
I prefer reason over revelation because reason embraces humility and accountability while inspiration invokes an absolute authority.
Those who claim to speak to God and refer to voices in their mind and burnings in their bosom cannot know whether they are really talking to a divine authority or if they are simply responding to their own desires. Bolstered by faith they deny that they need to justify themselves.
Those of us who base their decisions on reason, on the other hand, can never preclude that they might be wrong.
Whatever happened to: You shall know the false prophets by their fruits?
Killing a drunken man after disarming him is hardly a good fruit.
HL: “Whatever happened to: You shall know the false prophets by their fruits? [P] Killing a drunken man after disarming him is hardly a good fruit.”
If you have to kill someone anyway, doing it while they are passed out and unarmed is one of the safest ways of doing it.
Since Jerusalem was going to be destroyed anyway by the Babylonians and the majority of the inhabitants killed shortly after Lehi left, one could argue that Nephi did Laban a favor by killing him while unconscious instead of leaving him alive for the Babylonians to kill while awake, perhaps a slow death due to wounds, or possibly torture.
Having one’s head cut cleanly off with one quick stroke is one of the quickest and least painful methods of execution. That’s why Dr. Guillotine invented his famous machine.
Just some hypothetical questions: If you *had* to die, which method of execution available in 600 BC would you choose? And if you *had* to die anyway, do you think being drunk and “feeling no pain” might make it easier?
It’s interesting how you want to quote parts of the Bible, but not other parts, such as where God told the Israelites to kill all the pagans occupying the promised land, all men, women, and children.
Is Nephi being commanded to kill Laban any different than Old Testament prophets and kings being commanded to kill people?
We don’t know Laban’s whole story. Maybe he deserved to die for things we don’t know about.
If God is the ultimate judge, as the Bible states, then doesn’t he have the *right* to condemn people?
Of course, what I find fascinating is that we are put in a position of apparently needing to justify the killer god stories of the Old Testament win order to validate our faith. This really twists the mind. I’m much more inclined to accept error in Old Testament than force my mind to accept the loving|killing god paradox.
It’s not a paradox Walt. God doesn’t care much about physical death. (Rememeber the recent tsunami?) God does care a great deal about “spiritual death” though. I think the revelations consistently support this concept.
Part of the problem with the whole Nephi/Laban thing is that God had several dozens of ways he could have had Laban killed. Remember the guy who steadied the Ark of the Covenant and fell over dead? Or the bear who came out of the woods and killed the kids who were making fun of one of those “E” prophets?
If God wants someone dead, He certainly doesn’t need a mere human to do the job for him.
I’d make a more than slight distinction between deaths caused by a tsunami or any other natural disaster and the dogma that god commands those deaths…and an even greater distinction with the belief that god commands others to inflict death on others.
BTW Geoff,
You just succinctly summarized the premise of blood atonement. Pretty cool.
Watt, I’m pretty sure that Geoff doesn’t accept blood atonement. Although that has become relevant to the theme of this conversation, let’s avoid ascribing beliefs like that to each other if possible.
I agree. It was my intent to ascribe belief in the doctrine to Geoff, just to point out that what he said is the premise of the doctrine.
Sorry I wasn’t more clear.
I meant to say “it wasn’t my intent”
Cowardly is the word that comes to mind. Cruel is another one. In light of your description, it is clear that there was no need to kill anyone.
Gee, if Nephi had been more in tune with the spirit then he would have become a mass murderer. Think of all the good he could have done.
Guillotine invented his machine because decapitation was anything but quick and painless before his innovation.
Do you believe that killing women and children is a commandment of God?
That’s what gives religion a bad name.
Nothing what happens here matters. Don’t worry about suffering. It’s only temporary. People can do anything to each other. God will sort it out.
Opium for the people.
Why is it so important to love thy neighbor as thyself?
You are crossing the line, Bookslinger. That’s dangerous talk that can have real life consequences. Are you aware of what you are saying?
Okay, folks, I feel that we’ve perhaps reached the end of the line on discussions of divinely-authorized killing. Let’s set this aside until some point in the future when I can pull together a post on the historical context for the early Mormon teachings on the subject. Then we can have a discussion on the subject in which some light can be shed. As things currently stand, I’m afraid we’re only generating heat.
I’m confused about this conversation.
Either the record is accurate or it isn’t. Either God told a real person (Nephi) to slay a real person (Laban) or he didn’t. It sounds like Hellmut and Walt don’t believe the overall record is accurate to begin with … Isn’t that true? If it is true then why are we talking about the ethics of God doing what God does? Isn’t the real question whether God actually told Nephi to slay Laban or not? If so the only good way to get an answer in to ask God himself.
If you aren’t getting any answers from God on that question then why waste all this time arguing about a record you think is fiction to begin with? Why not spend more time figuring out why God isn’t talking to you?
Oops. Sorry RT. Missed your last comment.
HL,
I apologize if you felt I was jumping to conclusions. I was not striving to attack nor put words in your mouth, hence I was asking questions.
You said:
My criticism is that they are demanding an unreasonable degree of obedience even though they are imperfect.
Let head down the road of you being correct, that they are “demanding an unreasonable degree of obedience”.
My thoughts back to you are this:
Are you open to the possibility that these people are human, and not only have made mistakes, are currently making mistakes, and will continue to make mistakes. Can you find it within you to find peace within yourself, while being with people that seem “overbearing” to you, so that you can be involved, be of service, be served, learn your life-lessons, help others learn their life-lessons? Can we find a way to “have-it-all”? Must we go to the space of “They are too demanding so, I’m going to leave, and if I don’t leave, I’m going to Judge these people?
Are you open that even though you may feel someone is demanding, someone else would take them as soft, and undemanding?
Now please don’t feel I am diminishing your experience. Each experience is true. You may think Matt is a bad guy, and I may think he’s a swell guy,….. and can’t both of us be right? Each of us judge others based on our life-experiences. New life-experiences assist us in looking through different colored glasses, and give a new experience. Those that lived in the concentration camps during the war can come home and be happy under any rules, even prison, because it’s better than what their previous life-experience taught them. Your life experiences so far, have lead you to your feelings now of “They are overly demanding”. Those are your real feelings, that is your experience.
I spent 3 years in the Army prior to serving a mission. At first I loved it, then hated it and then cynical about it. In time I realized I was letting the situation control me. I was letting people that had the right to be demanding on me, weigh me down and so they were controlling what I was feeling. When I learned the lesson to take back my power to choose, and chose to enjoy my time in the Army, and made the most of it. I was able to go back to a new training, I got a new position, and I had a great time the rest of my time in the service. I love the years I spent in the Army.
It is the same with the LDS church. We can choose to love it. We can choose to leave it. We can choose to hate it, or the people that said and did things that we feel hurt or offended by. We can choose to stay in, and think all the members are lost souls. We can choose to read something that some church leader said or wrote, and decide “Well the church can’t be true if that person said that”. But how would that serve us? How would it serve us to make a huge new life-choice because someone said something? Someone was demanding? Someone was overburdening?
Christ told the Rich man to sell all that he had and give it to the poor, and come follow him, In my book, that was pretty demanding.
Personally, I choose to not allow comments, opinions, stories, beliefs, pulpit-pounding-preaching or even church-leaders-being-demanding-in-my-face control my emotions, my beliefs about the gospel, my beliefs about the Book of Mormon, my beliefs about the restoration. The restoration happened whether people agree with it or not. The Book of Mormon is true no matter how much people strive to disprove it. Joseph Smith is a Prophet & even though we was human or how many mistakes he made. I chose to not allow mistakes of people inside or outside the church, change what God has born witness to my soul.
SpeakTheTruth
Walt,
You mentioned you are more inclined to accept errors in the Old Testament.
So are you saying you believe the Old Testament isn’t true? Is that correct?
Or do you mean you think they are great stories, but the stories aren’t true?
Or do you believe they are kinda true but it’s full of possible mistakes?
Do you own an Old Testament, but don’t believe it’s truthful? Or just stories?
So do believe only in the New Testament?
I’m not getting what you believe.
Can you help me?
SpeakTheTruth
I’ll defer to RT’s request and save this discussion for a later date…or we can take this offline if you want to send a mail to m a h o u n @ g m a i l . c o m
HL: Sorry. I forgot that you’re not in the United States. I assumed you were aware of the policy in many states of the U.S. that allow a condemned prisoner to choose among several methods of execution. It was a purely academic hypothetical question.
I also forgot that English is not your native language. No hidden meanings were intended.
I’ll honor RT’s request and drop the line of discussion.
This is waaaay back in comment 29:
I was more concerned how random readers might interprete this discussion, Bookslinger. Imagine some wacko acting on my choice.
Speak the Truth,
In light of the blog owner’s instructions, I cannot answer your questions here. Feel free to shoot me an e-mail.
Best, Hellmut